Death of a child disrupts life's natural order

Well, hey everybody, and welcome back to Qualified, the place where incredible people share their stories of overcoming great adversity and loss to inspire you and give you hope. I'm Michelle Heaton. Losing a loved one is one of the most difficult things we have to go through in this life. We all know that as we grow older, we'll experience more and more loss. Some of us experienced the death of our grandparents early on in life. And then sadly, we may see the loss of mom and dad as time goes on in the so called natural order. And as we begin to have our own children, we naturally expect to outlive them based on this way of thinking. But that was not my experience, having lost my son suddenly at the young age of 17. And my guest today has also lost a child, a sweet son, who was also 17. When he died suddenly, he has much to say about this disruption of natural order in his life. And he does that often as he provides mentoring, counseling and coaching to others who are in need of his support and experience. And in addition to being a former pastor at a church in northern Texas, he's also authored his first book as a way to further his mission to inspire and help people overcome every obstacle this dynamic world throws at us. His name is Clint Hatton. And it's my great pleasure to have him on the podcast today. Welcome to qualified Clint.

Hi, Michelle, thank you so much. I've been looking forward to having this conversation with you.

Great, thank you. So to get started, can you just tell us about your son Gabriel, and also about that one big thing that he was so passionate about?

I would absolutely love to I love to share his story. You know, as all of us that are parents in you have children, they're all the greatest thing, right? And so I love all three, my boys, Gabriel was interesting in that from a very early age, he showed really strong communication skills. He, he had a very sharp mind, which this was all wonderful and challenging all the same time, because he could be very argumentative. We, we always knew that surely he was going to be like a CEO. Because he had to be in charge. You know, kids were playing games, he had to be in charge. And, and if it wasn't that, then he was arguing over something and didn't always, you know, think the facts were necessary. He just wanted to win. So anyway, but he had, he had a brilliant mind, he really did. And so where that ended up leading him and his passions was about the age around eight years old, he went up in a small aircraft with his uncle Danny, and something just happened to Michelle, he just got super excited about it. Good way to go again, and start talking about how he wanted to become a pilot. And so again, like most parents is like, Okay, that's great, you know, and then you're waiting to see if, you know, the day after tomorrow, he wants to be a fireman or major league baseball player, right, you know, but But it never really shifted, you know, he wanted to fly pretty much from that day on. And so, by the time he was a freshman in high school, we were really blessed to have some opportunities open up. One was the school district where we are here in McKinney, Texas, which is just north suburb of Dallas, has a four year Aviation Program, which is not typical. There's not too many of them in the United States. And so that gave him an opportunity to start taking some educational classes towards that. But then also his freshman year, he joined a club called tango 31 Aero Club, founded by a gentleman named Kevin Lacey. And so what that allowed him to do is begin to actually pursue his dream of flying sooner than later. It was really a cool setup. The way Kevin formed this club, he actually, let me share this because some of your some of your listeners may have heard that name and go could could he be talking about him because Kevin is actually pretty well known in the aviation industry. He's the former star of the show called airplane repo, which a lot of people may have seen. But anyway, Kevin started it specifically for teenagers that had a passion for aviation. So in order to fly if you want to become a pilot, you had to put in sweat equity, you had to work on motors and change oil and paint and all kinds of stuff. And Gabriel was very handy among being, you know, also brilliant. So it just was perfect RAM. Yeah. And so he he started doing that. And by the time he was 16 years old, he got his first opportunity to actually get in a plane And shortly after that he soloed for the first time, you actually sold a plane before he got in a car. So that's that was an interesting side note to this whole journey. But anyway, so the dream began for him. And then by the time he was 17, which is the youngest you can be to actually get your private pilot's license. So at 17, he took the exam, he passed with flying colors the first time, he took the checkride and passed that with flying colors. And next thing you knew he was a licensed pilot.

Wow, well, you must have been so proud of him and the way that he really went after what he wanted. So he soloed for the first time, he passed the exam at 17. Now he's a licensed pilot. What happened shortly after that time?

So that continued for a few months in being a pilot is all about the hours. So he was looking for every opportunity to go fly. And one afternoon on September 23, of 2019, he was heading out just a normal trip taking a friend home, he had several friends that he had graduated from high school with that were attending the University of Arkansas, which is north of us a couple hours in. So he took his friend home. And on the way back, he about 20 minutes outside of Fayetteville hit some unexpected weather patterns in a little mountainous range there and suffer from something that they call spatial disorientation, which is, is a scary thing. And it's it's the top cause of most pilots that end up in trouble. Many of your listeners are going to be familiar with it, even if they don't know the term. Kobe Bryant, the famous athlete Yes, helicopter pilot. That's exactly what happened to him too. And so keep Gabriel crashed, and he lost his life.So it was, you know, as you know,an incredibly devastating blow.

Yeah, Clint, and my heart goes out to you. I'm very, very sorry to hear that.

Thank you.

And I think most people would agree that losing a child is one of the worst losses that there is. So can you talk about what happened next? How did losing Gabriel impact your life? And what was your grieving process like?

Yes, well, I think pretty much everybody agrees with that, right? I mean, even I've suffered other forms of loss. I've lost my parents and a nephew 25 different types of losses, and they're all relative, they're all painful. They're all very meaningful to that person. But there's definitely something unnatural, you know, about losing a child for sure. And so, you know, it it. It rocked our world to put it mildly. I think, the way I would answer your question, because the grieving process, even though we weren't necessarily consciously aware of it, in the moment, it started really early, at least some of the things that I really know now, were very helpful in helping us just kind of deal with the grieving process and all that entails over the course of the last three plus years now. You know, we were on the couch, and my two younger sons, Gabriel's little brothers didn't know what was going on through the night, you know, they are in bed ready for a normal school day. And about 7:30am This is about four hours after we got official word from the coroner. They got up and came into the living room and I was forced with having the impossible conversation. Yeah. And so as we sat there, I, you know, I think, for me one thing that will there's a lot of one thing, that say it that way, first, there's no one big thing. I think there's a few things that are played into this. But certainly one foundational thing was, you know, I am a man of faith, I do have a relationship with God. And I really felt like in that moment, I was given the words that were necessary to just deal with that, that moment, you know, not, not the weeks and months and years ahead, just to deal with a moment and give us a compass. And so I turned to the boys and I turned to my bride amaryllis. And I said, Listen, we have no idea what the grieving process is going to look like for any of us. Yeah. And we don't know how long or even what that looks like. We don't know when we're going to be angry when we're going to be sad when we're going to have some joyous moments, you know, just having beautiful memories and laughter and things that we did together. And so, we need to do a couple of things and one is, so we can, we can approach us two ways. We can choose to be focused on for the rest of our lives, the tragedy itself, how he died All the milestones all of the different, you know, calendar events and things that we're going to miss. And if that's our focal point, then we are not going to be all we recreated to be, we're going to live a lesser life, because we're going to always have this. And I just call it a life or a death mentality. And I just felt like, you know, if we focused on the death, we're gonna get more

That's good. You had enough clarity of mind, even at of that. that time, to determine how you wanted to move forward as a family, and you laid it all out for them in that discussion. It sounds like you were able to draw on your past experience in counseling, and that was helping you navigate your own family's grief and trauma.

You know, I did pastor for 17 years, I've helped a lot of people through similar situations. Obviously, as we know, those of us who have gone through it, it's very different for you to go through it yourself. But I just knew in the moment that that was something we had to look at. So then my next statement was, but here's how we're going to walk this out. We're going to choose life. And what that looks like for us is Gabriel I just described, you know a little bit about just his nature and his character. He attacked life. He went for he was living his dream. I wish I would have had him for another 50 years, and may be the one who passed on an old age. But the truth was, he attacked life. You he graduated a year early, he taught himself how to play guitar, because he wanted to, he learned that photography, and became an amazing photographer. You know, he just really went for it, he had this zest. And so I just said, Listen, the only way we can really honor how he lived was for us to do the same. Yeah, not do the same things just be who we were created to be. So that was one thing was that we're going to choose to honor his life by choosing to live ours to the fullest. But Part Two that had to go with that, because we were in tremendous pain, as you know. And we knew that that pain was not going to go away. Your life has changed forever, we'll never be the same. And that's, that's not even a goal, you know. And so with that, I just said, you know, with the grieving process, we are going to do this together. And I said something that kind of turned into a quote, I'm pretty sure somebody else has probably said it as well. But I just told them, you know, it's going to be okay to not be okay. But it's not going to be okay to not be okay, alone. And so I think I said that, right. But you know, we can't isolate ourselves. Even within a family unit, we I've just seen that. wreak havoc on people's lives that have tried to bury it and just, you know, carry it alone. And so we just made a pact that morning, Michelle, I told the boys and they were only nine and 14 at the time. But we really felt like they had to be a part of that conversation. And we told them listen, when you're feeling pain, and you're sad, and you want to cry, it's okay. And do it. If you're feeling angry, it's okay. And you can do it, God's not gonna be offended by that. And either away, whatever it is, you know, if you end up feeling like you're starting to get depressed, or whatever the emotion would be in the future, because again, as you know, you feel them all at some point. It's a roller coaster. Yeah, it's not one. So I just said, you know, for all of us, it's going to be okay to feel that. And what we're not going to do is we're not going to stop each other from feeling it. In other words, you know, if maybe, maybe one morning, there's a trigger that hits me, and I'm the one who started to cry, and my wife isn't crying. She wasn't going to try and just hold me and say it's okay, okay, you can stop crying, stop crying, which is what some people do in these situations, or they think you should do and vice versa. So that was something we lead out with Michelle in the very early stage. And this has not been perfect. Your listeners need to know that we're we're certainly not perfect human beings. We're not a perfect family. You know, we didn't walk this out and execute it perfectly every single day. But but it was a compass. And it gave us something to recalibrate, to, you know, if we, if one of us went a few days without talking about how we felt instead of just bringing it out, or allowing ourselves to feel it, then it gave us a way to recalibrate. And so nobody really ever went a really long length of time without being able to talk things through and feel what they need to feel.

I love that. I think that's such a healthy approach. Basically, you're giving everybody permission to walk through their grief. And I think that's so important for people to know that it's okay to do that. So when you lose a 17 year old like we both did, they were in high school So there were friends, lots of them. And as hard as it was for us to process the reality of everything we know, it had to be so hard on them, too. I was fortunate to have so many of Sean's friends surround me and spend time with me. And they wanted to talk. And you know, I think it was healing for all of us. Did you have an opportunity to interact with Gabriel's friends at that time? Yeah,

there's a couple of factors in that, you know, at that time, we were pastors and we were pastors at a very large multi Campus Church, which that's only relative in that a lot of people knew who we were. And then Gabriel also attended high school, that's a very big six, a Texas high school. So because of some of the different things he did meet, he tended to have a lot of different friends from different backgrounds. You know, he had his aviation friends, he had friends that were football and baseball players, and he had friends that were into music. And you know, so when the celebration of life service happen, we ended up doing the campus that we had been on staff out with our previous church, they were really gracious from the moment things happened, and just helped us set everything up. And so we had over 1000 people at his Celebration of Life service, and several 100 of those were kids. So, as you can imagine, you know, even in our grief, and even the pain of having to even have a celebration of life service. We recognize there was something bigger going on as well. And I think a really important thing, at least it was for us is I think there's something in us that we all were created to be compassionate. In any time we express that compassion, even in a tragedy like this, it benefits us too. And so one of the things that I've said about that specific time was, it was okay, that we hurt more than everybody else. But it mattered that they heard to you and so we felt a weight. Michelle, we felt a weight, at least that particular day to stand stand true to what I already told you about how we were going to walk this out. So during the celebration of life service, you know, we I won't share with your listeners the whole thing, because it's a long story. There's a lot of different components, there was a massive flyover. There was actually over 23 aircraft of different pilots from around North Texas. Oh, that's great. Yeah, it was, it was wild. But ultimately, you know, we we spoke life again, over the kid, because they needed to know that just because his life got cut short, that should not stop them from living their life, because there was a lot of fear. And you know, death does that, right? Yes. It gives you a very stark reminder that nobody's guaranteed tomorrow, anything can happen. Anything can happen. Exactly. And so, you know, we did that during that service, and really had some beautiful moments. And in afterwards had some really beautiful moments with quite a few young people and a lot of his friends. And then that played out over the days, you know, after that as well. And then even to this day.

Well, you said before that on the day of the accident, Gabriel was flying a friend home, and that the crash occurred on his way back when he was alone. That friend was actually a young lady Gabe's age. Can you talk a little about what she experienced, because I imagine that she must have been heavily burdened by everything.

Just this last Christmas few weeks ago. She actually was in town, she lives in Utah now and attending a school there. But she actually showed up and brought us cookies. You know, her mother was the one who actually asked Gabrielle if he'd be willing to take her up to Arkansas, because she was of all things attending a funeral here in McKinney over the weekend. And him flying her up there would get her back much quicker and she wasn't gonna miss his any classes. So I'm glad you asked that, because I think what happened that first morning with them is also expressive of what we're talking about. And that is the mom and the daughter were as you just said, you know, distraught and I think the daughter was already suffering from survivor syndrome, and the mom was feeling guilty and, and we were hearing that, you know, they felt like we probably hated them and we probably blame them and all those things. So, you know, here we are, it's the morning after and you know, in excruciating pain in so many ways, but we recognize that you know, we had an opportunity here to to love on someone who desperately needed it. And also my my wife, actually if she already had their numbers and so she texted them and they were in our home just a couple hours later. And so we, you know, we we talked quite a bit we assure them that, first of all, no, no forgiveness was even necessary. You know, any any of us if we could backtrack the clock and change that moment in time because we knew something was coming, we do it right. And that's just not life. Yeah. So, you know, we assured them that we've certainly had no anger or any kind of art towards them. And we just, we just prayed with them and just shed a lot of tears. Yeah, held each other. You know, it was it was beautiful and crushing all at the same time. Yeah. But I think, you know, it helped her, at least take a step. You know, at least take a step.

That's good. So I know you had a plan as a family to communicate and feel your grief, however, and whenever it may come. But as we know, everyone grieves in their own way. And we often hear that grief can take a toll on a marriage. Do you recall learning anything about how your wife grieve, that you didn't experience yourself or even expect to experience?

So the the accurate way to answer that is, they followed my lead, and we all stayed as true as we could to just this plan, or this agreement that we made. But we're all different people. So all four of us, you know, grieved at different times, in different ways. And, and I think as a man, I'm glad you asked that question, because my mentor, actually, and I, honestly, I can't remember timeline wise, he told me shortly after the crash, or if it was a couple of weeks later and follow up. But he said, just remember that she carried him in she gave birth to him. And so just just be mindful that it may hit her in different ways that it just can't hit you.

Well, I think that was wise counsel from your mentor, because as a mother who's lost her son, I can attest to the fact that it often feels like a part of me is missing. It's that cellular connection that moms share with their babies. And when we lose them, our body sunsetting can experience the loss in its own way. But I've talked with other moms in previous episodes about this. And so I'd really like to know if there's anything you experienced that you believe was unique to being a father.

Well, our story which I don't often get into this part of it, largely because it's just so layered. And it's difficult to make concise. It's, it's your typical, not really a long story short. But to give you very quickly, some background. I was not Gabriel's biological father. And but But you asked, I actually was in a friendship with emeralds during her pregnancy. So our friendship started before that. And even after she had him, we still had a very good friendship. And then by the time we decided to get engaged, he was about nine months old. And then we had about a nine month engagement. So he was roughly a year and a half old when we got married, and I'm the only dad he's ever known. And in Part of the reason OSU I don't always get into that is because it's hard to describe. You know, I know sometimes we use the term stepdad. And that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that term. But I never felt like anything other than his dad, you know. And that's just because of how early it started. And, and all those things. So,as a man, I think, I think it's not dissimilar from what a mom would go through, but I think it was more. So just all just knowing that there's all these milestones, and things that thought we would be able to experience as a father and a son. Right.

As a man, did you feel like you had to be this bastion of strength for your family?

No, not not in the traditional sense of when most people say that. And here's specifically what I mean by that did did I need to be strong and resolute? By living out these these mindsets and values that we established? Absolutely. But what that didn't mean is that I had to hide anything, or I had to bury anything. I have cried in front of my wife and in front of my kids multiple times. And that includes even recently, yeah, like a couple of weeks ago.

Yeah. I mean, you're fresh and your grief as far as I'm concerned.

Yeah, absolutely.So I really think and I, I believe that there's a shift in our culture today regarding men that it's, I kind of came up in that generation where you know, you, you scrape and scrape your knee you know, get up rubs and You're gonna, you know, you got an injury, I tape and aspirin today is what my dad used to say, you know, just get back out there. And I think, you know, we're learning how to be more holistically who we were created to be. So that includes being able to process emotions, like, you know, what brings you to tears and, and those kinds of things. So I really feel like I've led them.Well,doing that maybe more than anything. Yeah, even though I've so show myself strong. I really think that vulnerability may be the most powerful thing that I've given my I love what you said earlier, giving my boys permission to emulate.

Yeah, I'm sure that's true. Well, you know, you said before you pastored for 17 years. And in doing so, you've got all the biblical insight to provide counseling that helps people have hope and and strengthen their faith. But I know that Gabriel's passing, probably took it to a new level in terms of having the experience and the qualifications, if you will. So you decided to write a book called Big, bold, brave. So before we get into that, talk about the title, why did you choose that title?

Yeah, so the the morning of the crash after we knew he had passed away, because of his age, the news agencies were already reaching out to us, we'd been contacted by a couple local news agencies, including one was an NBC affiliate, and the reporter, super sweet, super kind. But she wants to know, she can interview us that day. And of course, you know, my first reaction that was are you kidding me? There's no possible way. I mean, we were a train wreck course. And I just I could do it. And before we hung up, side said, No. She said, Listen, no pressure at all, she goes, but I just want you to understand, you know, one thing, because of his age, this is a story that is going to get reported. So if I do the report without interviewing you, it's just going to be basically a report on how he died. If you allow me, and she happens to be a believer, then all let you tell the story, however you want to tell it, and you can include your faith as much as you want to. So we hung up, I did not say yes, yet, you know, we hung up. And my, my bride was of course there. And her dad, my father in law was already here, as well. And he was the most surprising to come to this conclusion for a bunch of reasons I won't get into just for sake of time, but he's the one who actually turned to me and said, You know, I think you should do it. Because if we're going to try to walk this out as a family, honoring who he was and how he lived is our focal point. This may be your first shot at doing that. And he was right, you know, and so we'll say we're in our living room shortly later that afternoon, and it was incredibly hard to do. But she was really good at kind of, you know, walking us through it. And somewhere in there, Michelle, to get to answer your question, because I'm answering your question. There, I said he lived his life big, bold and brave. I don't remember saying it. But what happened was, is the segment that she created was about three minutes long. And we saw it on the news later that evening. And at the very end of it, she chose to do a voiceover instead of me saying it. And it basically ended with and his parents encouraged you to live your life like Gabriel sorry, that's, that's a big, bold and brave. Yeah, that one gets me most of the time. Yeah. And there was just something about it, there was there was life in that statement. And so you know, it wasn't a book, it wasn't my personal development company, like it is now. It was just a phrase, that became quickly just this family mantra to just, let's hold on to that we're gonna live like Gabriel, big, bold and brave. So that's, that's the origination of it. And then over the course of, you know, a year or so, I began to I really felt like I was beginning to get a vision and, and pull towards starting a personal development company to really help a lot more people than I can help just within the confines of the church. And, you know, for me, that said, the name Big, bold, brave was a no brainer, once I did the search and found out nobody had enough stuff. And then eventually, I really felt led to write the book. You know, one thing I want to point out too, because so many of your listeners, you know, they've suffered a similar loss like we have, but there's other kinds of loss too, and not even come close to comparing to it. But it definitely can stack on you emotionally. So three months after he passed away COVID It you know, so So For that, first three years, while two years in particular, we were processing his death, which was by far, you know, obviously the most painful, difficult thing. But then we were also processing the world turning upside down, and we lost other friends, not necessarily to COVID, I had a dear friend that passed away cancer during that time. And only about two years into it. My son, Joel, who was driving at that time, got in a horrible car accident, and should have died, the police all of us are still blown away that he walked out, if I showed you the pictures of the car, you go, nobody walks away from that. And he not only walked away from it, he had one little scratch, you know, literally one little scratch. So there was a lot of other loss and scary things that could bring fear. And I just recognized that there was so much loss, and so much fear going on in this world, that I could write a book that honor my son's life, that help people that have been through something similar, and could also help some people that are facing some of the other crazy things are happening on this planet and live a life with hope.

Yeah, you know, when you were talking about big, bold, brave, and how that just came out, and it was meant to be one of the common kind of mantras that I hear on the podcast is purpose and the pain. So many of us that have been through traumatic loss, discover that discover that there's purpose in the pain. And I know that that was all over your website. I read that too. So you believe that there was purpose in this, you talked about that, and you're committed to living your life this way by the work that you're doing. But can you honestly say that living out this purpose has soothed or ease some of the pain of this loss?

Yeah, you know, I wouldn't? That's a great question. That's a great question. wouldn't answer it, that it's less than the pain in and this is just, you know, my process, my take, and it does come with working with a lot of people, but I don't expect the pain to ever go away. You know, there was such the pain represents the great love that we share. So I don't even ask for that to go away. So to answer your question, I don't think that it diminishes pain, good. But I do feel like that word purpose. It gives us something to do with the pain. It's given us really a vehicle to take what could have destroyed us. And through serving people through loving on other people do something really positive and in the process. In our case, that's just the way I built this the way I wrote the book, to tell people Gabriel's story as well and keep his memory alive.

Yeah, yeah, I feel that way to Clint. Throughout this discussion, you shared some really good insights with us having walked through this difficult time in your life. You learn that if we choose to focus on the tragedy and the pain, we'll miss out on all we were created to be you shared your family's decision to honor your son's life, by living your lives to the fullest like he did. And you encourage others to do the same. You told your family it's okay not to be okay. But it's not okay to not be okay alone. And you encourage them to feel their emotions as they arise and to communicate how they feel. You know that when someone dies, the family will be devastated. But you also acknowledge there will be other hurting people who will also need support, and you made an effort to comfort others in your pain. You experienced a tragic and sudden loss. But you wanted others to know that fear should not stop them from living life. You found that men and women share their own unique grief emotions, and you are mindful of those important differences. You helped us to see that showing vulnerability can be a powerful thing, that we shouldn't wish away the pain because the pain represents a great love you shared and that serving and loving people as a result of your loss can be a great way to help yourself and others. Clint what other lessons did you learn as a result of losing Gabriel that you can share with someone listening who needs help right now?

Well, I think you know, there's a lot of things that you know, debt in your family at all, let alone one child does to you and it certainly for us made us immediately look at everything in our life, the way we spend our time who we spend it with, obviously, you know, the punch line with where I lead my career was I'm no longer pastoring I'm now a personal development coach and helping people. So there was there was some changes that came out of that. But to me, the most profound life lesson was is it really made it so vivid, how short of time we really have that the veil between this life and eternity is just razor thin and we just don't know, any Oh, do I have a bad day still do I not always do something that I feel like I accomplished enough for, you know, or maybe you didn't have as good attitude a particular day? Sure, you know, we're still human. But it made us all far more intentional, to take each day One day at a time to try and find something in each day to either be productive, or to experience joy on some level, even if it's just going for a walk or hanging out and having dinner at the table. You know, we spend more time with family extended family than we ever did in the past, including ones who live in other states. So that certainly was a big change, because you know, we get one crack at it, Michelle, we get one crack at it. So I just I really believe that for your listeners out there. If they're not living the life they want, if they don't spend the time, the way that they would really want to, to take a really hard look at that. And make some what I like to call courageous decisions and make a change and do the things that you know, really bring you joy. I can't even fathom, you know, as your listeners already know, I was a pastor for 17 years. And so I've been in a lot of environments, including hospital rooms, seeing people die in front of me, with people that have faith and people that don't have faith. And our youngest son, Liam was born at one pound, 14 ounces, it'll leave three at three months. And we're also almost died giving delivery. And he almost died during that two and a half months he was in the hospital. So there were other parents in that NICU unit that I saw, and, and some of them didn't have a foundation of faith. And, you know, I just, I can't even fathom how you even continue to breathe, or step without that foundation of faith. And so for me, you know, I have a couple of a couple of foundational outlooks on faith that that are unwavering. One is that I believe that God is good. Clearly, not everything that happens to us is good. But I believe God is good. Yeah. And I also believe that we're gonna be reunited. One day, and and even I'll take it a step further. I'm not trying to start anything theological, anybody out there. But I also believe that that we know when we do go to heaven, we're Gabriel is now that there's a continued mission, that he's he's living life. He's not floating around with Angel Wings, there's there's a mission and a purpose to what he's doing now. And so I look forward to that day, when we're all reunited. And so, you know, I recognize that everybody believes that way. And that's, that's perfectly fine. But for me,

it's critical. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing that, because it's critical for me as well. And I'm hopeful that that will help someone who's listening who's at that point in their life. So I mentioned the book, can you just take a minute and tell listeners where they can go if they want to get a copy as well?

Yes, what I would love for people to do, because I have I mean, this book is just part of what for me is launching a mission. You know, I really want to help a lot of people. And so the best place to go is to my website, which is big, bold brave.us. I like to say big, bold brave.us. Because I think none of us do anything great on this planet without the collaboration of other people, right? So if they go there, it's kind of one stop shopping. Michelle, they can get the book, if they like to get the book there, they can find out more about what I do with personal development, coaching and speaking. So if they go there, they can do all of those things. But if they, you know, you have probably some international listeners as well. And so they can go to the website to connect with me. But if they want to get the book, it's better for them to just go wherever books are sold. So Amazon, Barnes and Noble, all the different online retailers.

my prayer that it's going to help a lot of people who are in this kind of position.

Thank you somuch, Michelle, I really appreciate you.

So for those of you listening, I don't know what kind of loss you're struggling with right now. But I know that loss is painful, and it can make going through each day harder than it's ever been before. When Clint lost his teenage son, the natural order went out the window. It's impossible to prepare for something like this in advance. But we have a choice now about how we will live after our loss. Clinton his family chose to live like their son and embrace life. I love it when he said that pain is the price we pay for the love we shared. So I never want that pain to go away. That may sound unusual and strange to some, but if you're in it, you know, but don't forget the next part. Keep living like your loved one dead. Your job is not done yet. You're still here.You have a purpose. So stay strong. Keep the faith. And remember, oneday you'll be able to help someone else with the lessons you learned in your loss.Thanks for listening.