Engineer to Empath - How my wife's death transformed me

Hey everybody and welcome back to Qualified, the place where incredible people share their stories of overcoming great adversity and loss to inspire you and give you hope. I'm Michelle Heaton. Before we experienced great loss in our life, we were different people. We of course heard stories about others who had lost their children, or their spouses, and the thought of it made us recoil in fear. We may have entertained the thought for a moment. But if you're like me, you quickly pushed it right out of your mind. We don't even want to imagine what that devastation would feel like, or what its effect would be on us. And the thought that something good could ever come from losing someone we'd love dearly, was the furthest thing from our minds. But that was then. On the other side of loss, I can tell you that good does occur. Beauty does emerge, and pain can reveal purpose. Well, my guest today is a man who has experienced great loss. His wife, Pam died of cancer in 2019. Prior to her passing, he characterized himself as a full-on type A a engineer and geek, who's left brain dominated his way of thinking at all times. But now following Pam's death, he underwent a radical transformation that he calls his right brain awakening. And he now defines himself as an author, Father, widower, engineer, and newly minted empath. I love it. His name is John Lodal and it's my honor to have him on the show today. Welcome to Qualified John.

Thank you, Michelle. I'm glad to be here. I appreciate you inviting me.

Great. Well, John, I've been looking so forward to this conversation since we first met. I read your book, I picked your brain. And I'm ready to throw some questions your way. So can you kick things off by telling us about your wife, Pam, and the relationship you too shared?

I can do that. Indeed. I met Pam in high school. And I was amazed that she even noticed me. I'm still grateful for that. We very quickly I realized this, this was my true love. It was it was always a very easy companionship. I loved being in her presence. This was full life for me just to be around Pam. And soon after we moved out to Boise from Champaign Urbana. I went to work for HP. And we started our life. We had no family around us, we had to figure out what it was between us. And we had a lot of shared adventures here in Idaho, and also beyond the borders of the United States. But it was it was a relationship that always fulfilled me. It always filled me up. And I was never really interested in any other woman. She was the one I wanted. And that was always grateful that she chose me. I'm I'm glad I didn't take that for granted.

John, that sounds like a great relationship, and that you two are made for each other. So sadly, on October 31 2019, after a courageous battle with cancer, Pam ultimately passed away. Can you talk a little about your immediate reaction and your grief at that time?

That's a difficult night to remember. Pam and I had been in hospice for about five weeks, she had fought head and neck cancer and this was the third round and this time but it was clear that it was getting the upper hand. So I was doing everything I could to be the best caregiver I could do. It was in looking back and at the the intensity, the focus of caregiving was kind of extraordinary. I really hadn't thought at all about what was going to happen after after that sad event came to pass. So that night, about a quarter to 10 I came out and found her with no pulse and she was still warm. I'd been answering the door for trick or treaters, I've been washing dishes. And I fuzzed out I now know with some help from my grief counselor that this was a reaction that I characterize as mental circuit breakers and I go into that in the book and they all blew open. This is this is a self preservation thing that allows us to move forward amidst overwhelming grief, and I probably sat next to her bed for about 20 or 30 minutes before I figured I should probably call someone. And so I called my son who was in town and I called hospice. They came over and took care of the of the nuts and bolts, but it was an overwhelming thing. And it was absolutely brand new territory. And to tell you the truth, I can't remember it in great detail but that particular night is still pretty fuzzy and that has to do with all those circuit breakers in my brain blowing open. And then I was absolutely unprepared. I had been so focused on being the best caregiver I could that I had done no planning no fore thought at all about, well, what happens when she when she dies? There I was faced with it.

Yeah, it must have been so difficult for you. And I can only imagine how hard it would be to transition your mind from being a selfless caregiver to now a grieving husband who actually needed to be cared for. So if you would tell us about what you experienced next with other people, and what you concluded about how our society respond to grieving people

There was a lot going on. So I had planned Pam's memorial service or celebration of life for five weeks. So I had, I had all that time to allow people to make travel plans to come to southwest Idaho to say goodbye. And my phone was really quiet. And I didn't, I didn't know what I was doing. I was I was just kind of stumbling through the days. But I now realized that there were a lot of other people that were experiencing widespread and deep grief, she was a good friend of many people, and we were all going to miss her. But after her memorial service, that's when I came to the conclusion, I'm glad I did that, boy, I'm going to need some help here. This is this is something I cannot do on my own, I have no idea what to do next. And this is going to eat me alive if I don't do something about it. And that's when I that's when I contacted a friend who put me in touch with my grief counselor. And this was a big deal. Because one of the things that I can share with your listeners is that grief counselors are the decoders of grief. We are not trained in American culture to do anything about grief when it hits us. We're like, what are we supposed to do now. And it's not as if you've ever discussed it around the dinner table or had your parents mentor you. It's almost always new territory for for all of us. So I was overwhelmed. And I read one of the things I realized early on is that you know, the old John is gone. What's going to happen next what what happened at that point was that I was alone in the house. So I hadn't lived by myself for the better part of 45 years. And I had to get used to that. But I also had Jerry, my grief counselor who was helping me with with what looked like minor and simple instructions or requests that allowed me to keep moving forward on this this grim journey of grief. I do my best to support both of my children. My son was living in Boise at the time my daughter was was in Illinois, and they had just lost their mother. So I was doing my best to make sure that I was listening to them, I was trying to support them. My siblings initially call they all came out for the memorial service. I have a sister and a brother. But after that I didn't hear much from them. And then I'm sure COVID played a role there as well as as well as the American grief illiteracy is what I'll call it. And I was hearing from some friends, but it seemed like this was my real moment of need. And there wasn't a whole lot of traffic on my phone. I felt lonely, I felt I felt invisible. And I I realized that that was not a great place to be I didn't want to wallow in self pity. And Jerry helped me through a lot of that. So there was a lot of grief that was going on that everyone was trying to deal with the fact that Pam was gone. But there wasn't a lot of acknowledgment that John might really need us at this point. So other than Jerry, I wasn't hearing from a whole lot of people.

I'm sorry, you didn't get the support that you need it back then. And I love the term you use grief illiteracy, because like you said, it doesn't get discussed around the dinner table. No one teaches us how to appropriately respond to Grievers. And in so many cases, they just flee, which feels awful to us. So I want to point out that you grew up as a pastor's kid, and you met Pam at church youth camp. So it sounds like you had a strong faith foundation in your life from an early age. Did that faith play a role in your grieving process and healing? Well,

there was a number of roles. You know, initially, I could not have a civil conversation with the Almighty, there was a lot of screaming and cussing at my walls in terms of my perception that the Almighty had taken Pam from me. And this this was a real stop on my on my progress. I had to talk to Jerry about this. So I was extremely angry that you could have done something about this. Why did you have to take her at age 62 When we were just getting used to being in an empty nest. But the things got better. So I asked Jerry explicitly, I said, I'm stuck. I'm so mad at God, I can't make progress on anything else. And so she asked me a question. She goes, John, do you think that God is walking next to you in this journey of grief? And at that time? I said no. And he's not invited, really don't want a company on this journey? And she said, Well, how about some of your friends? Do you think some of your friends might be walking next year? I said, yeah, there are a couple of them that are keeping in touch. And then she leaned forward and she looked me in the eye. She goes, Do you think that God might be working through your friends in terms of helping your grief? Like, oh, I hadn't thought of that. And that that was enough to get me moving forward again. So at that point, I could Speak in a more civil tone and tongue to the Almighty, and start to figure out, how do I move toward acceptance on this. And I went through a program called GriefShare, which was, which was helpful. But my brother brought up the story from the Gospel of John Chapter nine. And this is where the disciples made a blind man on the steps and the temple in Jerusalem. And one of the disciples goes, Rabbi was at this man's father, was it his own? Was it his own sin that caused him to be blind, I could go, I could kind of see Jesus dropping his jaw going, No, you don't get it at all, guys, this man is blind for the greater glory of God, you just can't see the whole picture. It's like, oh, so I figure the Almighty had a bigger plan for her. And the fact that these words came out of the son of Gods now, that always makes me sit up and listen a little closer. But that that story resonated with me in terms of, I can't see the big picture. But I gotta trust that that big picture. Makes sense. So my faith is built around the fact that God knows me by name, then then I am already forgiven and loved. Regardless of what I do, what you find out is that God is trying to position us to live the most full life we can that we cannot earn our way into heaven. So now, when you think about okay, guys, in my corner, God knows who I am. And he's already forgiven me as that might be the biggest gift that any of us have ever been given. If you are confident in that, then all of a sudden, you start thinking about, well, how can I say thanks to thank you for this? Well, it's my service. And that has put me on a very solid foundation, that I'm going to do my best to live my best life, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to listen on Sundays when a sermon is is preached to me and see what I can learn. But I'm never going to question the fact that God knows me and loves me. And I'm just looking for ways to find the best way to say thank you, whether that's a soup kitchen, or whether that's some project over Boise Sunrise, Rotary, that, to me is an extremely fulfilling way of living your life and saying thank you to the Almighty, for all the blessings that we have. So that level of theology, that level of faith is something that I'm really glad I'm clear on. There are other things. I'm still learning and I got it, I got a long ways to go on my own faith journey. But that one, I got my arms around. And I'm glad I do, because it allows me to keep my eyes wide open. And I know why I'm doing good deeds, it is not to earn heaven points, it is to say thank you, for everything that has already been given to me. And that feels just right. So faith has played a big part, I am a preacher's kid, I am in touch with what I believe in terms of my relationship with the Almighty, and how I want to live this life. And I'm glad but it took a while to get there. There was there was some rough days in between.

I am so glad to hear that. And I completely understand the anger at God emotion that comes up a lot during these podcasts interviews. People say why would a loving God the God that I serve, do something like this to me. But it's so interesting that you realize what you call the big picture because that really takes a leap of faith to get there. So that's awesome. Okay, so you ultimately decided to write a book because of some of these new emotions that you were experiencing. And you call it A Right Brain Awakening - What Grief Taught a Heartbroken Engineer. Great title. You said earlier that you worked at Hewlett Packard HP, and that engineers were highly valued for their left brain skills. For those of us who may not understand the concept of right brain left brain thinking, tell us about it and what this awakening was about and your newfound relationship with empathy.

Thanks for asking. I was I was seeking to address what I consider to be a literary vacuum. I read a bunch of terrific books after Pam died. And I've referenced those in an appendix in the book. But none of those were written from the point of view of a left brain geek like me, I had 32 years at HP. And my problem solving abilities were what got me compensation. This is what was valued by that employer. And I was good at it. I enjoyed solving problems. And I always wanted to learn new stuff. So I fully leaned into my left brain. The general idea behind left brain right brain is that your left brain folks are mathematically inclined. They're excellent planners, they're organized, whereas your right brain folks are empaths creatives, you can think of maybe some musicians or grief counselors. And what I found was that, in order to me to make progress on this journey, this path that I never wanted to be on, I really needed to lean into some of that empathy. And this happened naturally. As well as from some of the reading that I was doing that I realized that there's not much going on there. Right It sat on my brain. And without that, I am not going to make the kind of progress that I'm hoping to, in understanding this train wreck that had happened in my life. So as I said, a friend of mine had written a book. And I had also done a lot of journaling. And I've done a lot of online blogging on on what's called CaringBridge. This is a site where we shared a lot of the details of Pams laryngectomy, in 2017. And it was for only a specific audience, you had to be allowed in. And so I had a lot of great source material in terms of, you know, what I was feeling when I was feeling it. And what Steve told me was, you know, John, that might make a good book. And I had to wait for the muse to arrive. And it did in January of 2022. And so I banged out about 40,000 words over the course of about six weeks, and found an editor and she said, You got something here, but we got to clean it up. It was she says it's raw, it's a mess. But we think we got good raw content here. And it could I really felt it could serve what I think is a widespread need in the United States, in terms of how do you do grief? How do you How might someone do this in an effective manner? And let me make one more point. As I read all these books, every one of them that I read, I found stuff that I really resonated with. And I found stuff that I thought was just hogwash. And every books and so I started cherry picking I said, I'll take that one, that one and that one. And I think that my book can do the same thing for others. As you read the stuff that was important to me. I'm hoping that the readers will say, yeah, yeah, that works. Good. But no, no, I don't believe in that. And I think that is, at least in my process. That's how the grief journey move forward, is that I picked up a little bit of everything from from different authors. And at the same time, I found stuff that I felt wasn't it wasn't going to work for me at all. So I want to put all this together and put it out there because I thought there was a need in this this country. And I didn't think that book had been written yet.

Well, I loved the book. And I think you did a great job of explaining the value of empathy, especially as it applies to grief. John, can you give us an example or two from your life, about how this change that occurred in you cause you to see things in a different way, or to respond to a situation in a manner that you wouldn't have done before.

I can tell you that I've always I've always seen service as something that charges my batteries. And there's one, there's one chapter in the book on that. One of the things that I've been rolling around in my brain is my ability now to see the richness of life, especially in the United States, we have so many blessings, living here. It's not as if I didn't see those before. But I certainly didn't see him in the kind of kind of clarity that I do now. And so I heard a piece on CNN from Sanjay Gupta that I really resonated with it. He opined that, especially American men, we, the right brain, in many of us doesn't wake up until we have a train wreck like this in our life until we lose a child or lose a spouse, or something that absolutely terrible, it happens to us and brings us to our knees. And all of a sudden, you can start to see all the tremendous things around you. So to have the two of the foundational things that I have focused on is being in the moment right here, right now you and I are talking and I and I greatly enjoy that. And then seeking gratitude whenever I can. And when I can put those two things together, things get better. So this whole richness of life and being able to lean in, if somebody's got something going on, as opposed to saying I'll see you later, I gotta go do something. I listened to them, I really tried to dial up my listening skills. And I find that it really feeds me now that this is something that I avoided consciously in the past, I was never in management at HP because I didn't want to manage somebody else's problems. And I wanted to solve problems associated with disk drives are. But at this point, I now will stick around and say tell me more. And and I am hoping that I am a source or at least a set of ears, that allows somebody to to tell their story, and to get it out there and feel better about it. And I wasn't that guy when when Pam was alive.

Very well said, I love the perspective that the old guy is now gone. But you get to define what's next. That's a very positive way to view things after loss. Thanks for sharing that. Well, in chapter 10 of your book, you talk about expressing grief through poetry. And you include several beautifully written compositions that truly capture what you called your mini epiphanies. And you also make a statement that you're not afraid to die anymore. Can you shed some light on chapter 10 for us?

Okay, let's talk about the poetry first. I was sitting on my back deck and you know, just trying to try to deal with things. And the first one came to me, I call it my world now and that that is I'm always still my favorite one. And I ran back into my laptop and I bang that out. And it wasn't bad. It needed a little bit editing. And then there was an interesting process where I was extremely unkind to myself who would want to read this stuff, poetry from an engineer. And then I caught myself, because what are you doing? Why are you so hard on yourself? Why don't you just why don't you just lean into this and see what happens next. So over the course of the next three or four weeks, I banged out another 14 or 15 of these things. And I'm proud of them. They're unique. I had no idea they were coming. And I'm glad I grabbed them when I did, because that news left after after poll number 16, boom, that was like, Okay, you're done with this now. And maybe it'll come back. In terms of the not being afraid of death, that that is another one of these huge blessings. All right, I had to go toe to toe with the beast in 2012. Pam and I had the same exact cancer we had, we had the left base of tongue cancer that had been attributed to human papilloma virus HPV, and we have no idea why it expressed itself in us, we we were a faithful couple, we weren't getting around we were we were just with each other. But it it expressed it and both of us. And you come out differently after. After going toe to toe with the beast, I name in the book three major inflection points in my life. And that's one one is getting sober, and 2011. One was dealing with cancer of 2012 2013. And the last one was the whole cancer adventure with Pam, which ultimately resulted in your death. And so I am not afraid of death. And I'm really glad for that. But again, I don't believe that is the way that most Americans look at it. And so this is a real gift that I didn't want to receive in the first place. Yeah, I'd rather have him sit next to me right now. But there it is. Yeah,

I get that for sure. So I found myself really relating to much of what you wrote in the book. And as I said, it's very good. You pose an interesting question to the reader. At one point in it, you ask, what might you wish to do now that your old life has gone? Why didn't you include that question in the book? And why is it so significant to consider this after we lose someone we love?

All right, this is this, this is a biggie, thank you for asking. I appreciate it. So again, I don't know why things came up. When they did. I think it has to do with those metal circuit breakers clicking back into place. But I realized pretty early on the old John was gone. This and for four years, in this battle against cancer, I had the same cancer that Pam had. And I was able to survive. And she went three rounds. And the third round is where it got the upper hand. In that, in that battle, you are dealing with medical professionals who are telling you what to do, do this, do that do this. This is best practices. This is how we this is how we defeat this scourge. But when when I sat down and started to take a look at what do I do now that big question, I realized that there was going to be a lot of one to zero votes in this household. This was up to me. And this was a level of control that was now back in my hands. But I I got to decide who this new guy was going to be there because there was gonna be a new guy. And so choosing kindness. Firstly, first of all kindness to myself, I was amazingly unkind to myself, I think that might be part of American culture as well. And then realizing how much I got out of being kind to other people. But all these things were grabbing control back and deciding who this new guy was going to be. These were empowering. These were things that I was allowed to decide for myself, they were a big deal, because it was going to be my life moving forward. And I'm glad that I had a level of clarity that there is no going back to who I was because the the person that my true love was not sitting next to me anymore, it was going to be somebody new. And who should that person be at that I hope is one of the things that resonates with anybody who reads my book and says, Okay, this has been awful. But now you get to define what's next. And the other thing is the other side of that coin, the negative side of the coin is I just did not want to be here taking up space. All right, there is still something for me to do. There's a bunch of things for me to do. And that comes back to Faith that comes back to service, all those things, all those things work their way into that. But I wanted my life to be one have purpose and have impact. And I'm living that life. Now. I wish Pam was here. But that's not the case. And so in the meantime, I got things to do. My story is not yet not yet done. And I hope to write a couple of very cool chapters before that day comes.

Yeah, I have said that so many times. It seems like we're all so grateful for the epiphanies that we realized in our grief. But if we could turn back the clock and have them back right now next to us would we want Want That, of course. So John, you shared so many great lessons with us today. You realize the value of having a counselor to guide you through your grief in those early days, and to serve as a sounding board for all the emotional ups and downs that you go through. You talked about being mad at God and then understanding that he hadn't abandon you. And in fact, he may have been working through some of your friends, you reached the conclusion that there is a bigger picture in this life and that when pain and suffering happens in our lives, we just have to trust that it makes sense. You discovered that although your employer valued and compensated your left brain way of thinking that it wouldn't serve you well as a widower and you began to realize and embrace a new right brain way of thinking that included empathy for others. You began writing, blogging and journaling and reaped therapeutic benefits that would also serve as the basis for your book. You told us that service, gratitude and kindness are great ways to look outside of ourselves when we're hurting, and they can help other people in their pain. John, what are some of those great life lessons you learned? Following Pam's death that you can share with someone listening right now who needs help?

One of the first ones I learned was from Meghan Devine, in the book that she wrote, It's okay, you're not okay. And that is the difference between pain and suffering. And with pain, it's your new companion. You never wanted pain in your life. But what her encouragement was, was set out a chair for it, it's now with you look at it, shine a bright light on it, have a little conversation with it, and get to know it because it's going to be there the rest of your life. And that was tremendous advice from her suffering in her in her definition was not sleeping well, not eating well, you can do something about that. But pain. And I think this is this is one of the big things that especially maybe with American men, when they're hit with overwhelming grief or overwhelming feelings, they seek to avoid it. A lot of times that involves substance abuse, who looked let's go to the bar, and let's drown this thing. But I came to look at it as I wanted to be on offense on this, I didn't want to always be on defense where a big wave of grief would just nail me. And in terms of my ability to proactively deal with with pain, which is still evolving, I'm still not very good at it. This is one that allows me then to say I've seen you, I know what you're like, what are you going to teach me today? You're welcome. Here pal sat on a chair for us that that whole big deal about proactively dealing with pain, knowing that it's with you for the rest of your days, putting it in your bones, and then still trying to find a way to move forward and a life that where you're enjoying what you still have. That was one of the biggies. We talked about the new guy that I am, I think one of the most healthy ways to manage that transition, is to tip your hat to the old guy. I know you I loved you, I enjoyed you. You're not here anymore. On we go. So being able to to objectively deal with your own evolution, I think is a is a really good thing. You're not only defining what the new guy is, you're also honoring who that old guy was. And I think that it's important to to take that step and say, I was it was nice to know you. Your time has now come to an end. I talked about seeking gratitude. That's huge. That is a huge one. And there's so many blessings around us living in the United States, where we live, who we know what, what kind of freedoms we have here. Those are things that if you can consciously think of those things, and then find a way to say thank you that those things are in your life, immediately put you on more solid ground, it's part of my theology as part of my overall life approach. And here's one more for your listeners. People are going to tell you when you're going to move on, you never move on, you move forward, you move forward, you put that grief in your bones. And you You keep learning and you keep your eyes open. So that you're in in the moment, and you're learning what's going on. But we never move on. Pam will be with me the rest of the days of my life.

Yeah. So true, or forever changed. John, thank you so much for all of these valuable lessons. I know, you and Pam had a great relationship. And when we talked before, you shared some really funny stories about how she even made you laugh in the hospital when things were getting really rough for her. And I know you miss those great moments, but she's still keep that alive in your family. And he told me a funny story that had to do with her obituary in the newspaper that made you crack up even the first day is following her death.

The day after Pam died. My son was over here and I had already written an obit for PAM, I said can you please submit this online to the local newspaper? And so it was added maybe about 200 words and I wanted to run it two Sundays in a row. And so I'm making these calls and all of a sudden I hear my son Jeff, go, oh, my, wait, wait, what's Oh, he goes, Do you know how much it's gonna cost? And I said, I don't know 150 - 200 bucks, it was 750 bucks. And so I was about to hand him my Visa card. And I kind of froze. And I said, No, we'll do it. So that night I was over at his house and his wife's got a pretty wicked sense of humor. She goes, let's, let's turn this around. Let's, let's say that you had died, John. And Pam was just confronted with the fact that an obituary for you is going to cost 750 bucks. I think she would have written something like John died. Please call Pam for details. Good one. First time I laughed after she died.

John, thank you so much. I'm gonna put a link in the show notes so that people can order your book online like I did. Very good. Well, at this point, I just want to thank you so much for agreeing to come on the podcast. It's been great getting to know you and to hear your story about Pam,

I thank you for asking the questions. Michelle. I think about Sean, I know you gotta you've got a milestone date coming up. And he's doing something important in that big picture that you and I can understand. We're still here. We our story isn't done yet. We got some things to do. And the day will come when you can go and dance with your son again.

That's right. Thank you very much, John. So for those of you listening, I hope you were inspired by the lessons John learned and his loss. He was truly transformed from a logical problem solving left brain engineer to a more emotional, right brained, compassionate Empath, who wants to slow down, take time with people hear their stories, listen, and be present with them in their pain. We need more of that in our world today. So like John said, the old guy is gone, but the new guy gets to define what comes next. So it is my hope that you can honor the life of the person you love so dearly, by living yours with a new purpose. And I know that when you do, you'll have a chance to help someone else who's hurting with the lessons you learned in your loss. Thanks for listening