Finding joy after the loss of a spouse

Michelle: 0:10

Well, hey everybody, and welcome back to Qualified, the place where incredible people share their stories of overcoming great adversity and loss to inspire you and give you hope. I'm Michelle Heaton. Thinking about death is hard. Even thinking about it can be difficult emotionally. After all, death is the final goodbye and when we love someone, the last thought we want to entertain is that someday they'll leave us. But the sad reality is that one day we will all lose people we love, and it will be hard and we will need support. So if none of us ever think about death or talk about grief, who then will be equipped to stand beside us in those dark days? Well, my guest today is well acquainted with grief and loss. In fact, she is a grief specialist, certified in critical incident stress debriefing, a certified trauma integrative practitioner, an eight-time award-winning author on grief, founder of the Grief and Trauma Healing Network, a co -creator of mygriefcarecom, an online grief support platform. She works with people worldwide on healing after loss and offers life-changing widow retreats in Southern California. She provides crisis grief support for businesses, trains therapists and speaks on grief wherever possible. She's passionate about advocating for and loving grievers and being an educational catalyst to society on grief and loss. Her name is Anne- Marie Lockmyer, and it's my honor to have her as my guest on the show today.

Anne-Marie: 1:52

Welcome to Qualified Anne- Marie. Hello Michelle, thank you for having me. Thank you for having me, of course.

Michelle: 1:58

Well, I have to tell you I am so thrilled to have you on the show because you have a wealth of knowledge that you could share with both grievers and people supporting grievers. But before we dig into all of that, I kind of want to start with Mark. If you could just tell us a little bit about your late husband, what your relationship was like and what occurred back on May 18, 2013 that would have a lasting impact on your life.

Anne-Marie: 2:25

Thank you. I met my husband, mark when I was 18 years old. We were together ever since. That Got married a few years later. He changed my life. He was the most beautiful, kind, good man. He introduced me to my faith. He was my best friend. We had a really beautiful, beautiful relationship in marriage. We had one child together. Anyway, like any marriage, we had ups and downs, but the last year of our marriage was the best year we ever had. It was just such a special year. Things were going so well. We had so many dreams. Then I had gone away on a work trip internationally and I got a phone call in my hotel room. I kissed my husband goodbye before I left. He was doing fine. I got a phone call that said you know, anne-marie, mark died. Mark died. He had suffered a brain aneurysm in our bedroom and collapsed. I don't know how long he was there and our son found him. The world as I knew it changed that day? Yes, I'm sure it did Well it sounds like four days before our 26th wedding anniversary. Oh, I am so sorry.

Michelle: 3:41

Well, Mark sounds like a wonderful man. How were those early days? I mean I know you were gone on business. You had to travel home with the knowledge that your husband had passed. That had to be horrific. And then arriving home and having to process that, can you talk about those emotions?

Anne-Marie: 3:58

Yes, thank you. I know that everybody experiences grief differently. If we're talking to someone who may think that's not what it was like for me, I just want to know that that's normal. We all have our own experience and we don't want to judge each other's Absolute shock. First of all, anguish, but fear. I would say fear was probably one of the strongest things I was dealing with. I'm very embarrassed to say this, but within five minutes of knowing he died, I started thinking Michelle, am I going to be okay financially? I know it's. Do we have enough money? What am I going to do for medical insurance? It sounds terrible to me when I say that. That's how security is so important to me. On top of all the pain, you just don't know what's going to come through your mind lost, can't think as much as it sounds terrible that I was out of the country and I couldn't get home. I was on a little island, so it took me a long time and you'd think that would have been cruel, but in some ways it was very good, because it just left me alone with my thoughts, as a matter of fact, on the flight. So you're on these 12-hour flights and I just listened to Christian music, by the way, the entire time and that was so comforting to me and it just gave me some time to think that I probably wouldn't have had otherwise. But I would say just everything changes in a moment. That's like the life as I knew it changed in that second and it would never be the same.

Michelle: 5:36

Well, thank you for your honesty and sharing those feelings because, yeah, I can relate to the way that your brain goes and I think I even read in your book you were saying that you made some awkward jokes even about it. Yeah, the things that come out of our mouths, right?

Anne-Marie: 5:53

The things that come out of our mouths as we're just trying to cope and understanding that our brains aren't working properly either, and it's one of the things that grieving people need to understand. I always tell clients, you know, you're not playing with a full deck, you're not. The grief just sucks so much of your brain cells out because of all that you need and then you're in an anguish. That that's. The other thing I would say is that I experienced a pain I never thought was possible that I did not know. I mean, you think you feel for people when you know they're hurting and you've hurt. Of course we've all hurt, but I never imagined that you could hurt the way that I hurt and that it could go so deep within me to where you don't even necessarily want to go on and live Right. You just lose your zest for life, and I always say that's different than wanting to take your life. That's different. But I would say if a bus hit me on the way home from work, I was just fine with that.

Michelle: 6:53

Yeah, so be it, so be it.

Anne-Marie: 6:54

That's just like I just don't care about those things.

Michelle: 6:57

Yeah Well, and I'm glad that you're sharing on that level because I think it would have helped me years ago to hear somebody say your brain isn't working properly. Right now those thoughts are normal, but I didn't have any resources or people like that to talk to and I thought I was losing my mind and that feeling of wanting to die. But then afraid I'm not suicidal but I just don't have that zeal for life like you brought up. So appreciate that very much. Making people understand that is really important, I think. But you talked about that kind of despair mode that you were in. Was there ever a time that you just felt so hopeless that you didn't think that you could get past it?

Anne-Marie: 7:38

That's a great question and absolutely I was absolutely hopeless. I couldn't imagine I had my faith right and I trusted God, but I just couldn't imagine ever being okay again. Does that make sense? Like? I just couldn't imagine ever being okay again. And I really think it's even hard when you're newly grieving to even hear messages of hope. We're not even ready for the. Does that make sense? Like, don't even say it's gonna get better with time. Just let us grieve. Let us grieve and just, and I always tell you you don't have to worry about hoping because I can help for you, but you don't even have to worry about that. We're just gonna take it one minute at a time. And you are absolutely right that newly grieving people need this kind of information early on. And it's one of the things I love to do with clients is do a grief orientation, just one session with somebody who's newly grieving so that I can hear what happened to them and walk them through and help them understand. It's normal and this is what I hear exactly what you said. Oh my gosh, you mean I'm not losing my mind, right that these feelings are normal, or people telling them things like but you have these lovely grandchildren or you have these lovely things going on in your life, so you have to focus on that. And when I tell them, just so you know it'd be normal for you not to enjoy anything in your life because your sorrow completely clouds your vision or anything else. For a lot of us, right? So it's not that there aren't other good things in your life. So, for instance, someone loses a child and they say but you have other children or you go. Well, I'm sorry, that's all true and they're lovely, but my sorrow right now clouds my ability to even enjoy those good things and for them to know that that's normal too. There's nothing wrong with them and it doesn't mean that those aren't good things. They're just not in a position to enjoy them right now.

Michelle: 9:43

Right, right, and I think we kind of expect the people that care about us, or friends and family that are around us, to be there for us, but just expecting that doesn't qualify them to be grief experts, and so I think there's a lot of resources available now, way more than there were when you and I first, back in 2013, were grieving so desperately. But at the same time, where do we turn? There's so many resources, so I think your book is a good source, and we'll talk more about the widow retreat eventually. But let's go back when we were talking about your emotions. Let's talk about seeking help. Were you ever in therapy? I think you mentioned that you did get some therapy. How long, and what was your greatest takeaway from that?

Anne-Marie: 10:27

experience? That's a good question. Well, I was in therapy before he died because our son was struggling with mental illness and I needed some help with that, and so she was already in place. So it was good to have that and to be able to go to her right away. We already had established relationship. But what I found through therapy? Some very interesting things. It was good to have somebody safe to talk to, right, because even though friends and family and they can be wonderful and maybe there's people out there that didn't experience this but most of the grievers I talked to are a little frustrated and disappointed with their friends and family, and not because they don't mean well or they don't care, but it's just so hard for them to understand and get it, and so we can get very frustrated and discouraged. So to have or we may feel they're judging us right or they're trying to fix us, so to have someone that you can just talk to, for that that was very good for me, to have that support and that safe place. So I do recommend it if you just wanna talk and have that safe place. But the other thing was is I wasn't getting any better in my group. That's what I noticed, and it was three, and you could see that I was hurting and I was struggling, and she'd say, you gotta get it out. And I'd say, okay, I wanna get it out, let's get it out, what's it and how do I get it out? And she said, well, you just have to get it out. And okay, I want to do that, but you have to tell me how. And she couldn't. And she was lovely, by the way, but she didn't specialize in grief. And that's what I've learned. And, as you know, my partner, Ron, and now my new husband, he's a therapist and he's the first to tell you it's not knocking therapists at all. They can't know everything. And he didn't know anything about grief and he lost his wife and his eyes had been completely opened. So what I found is and I hear this a lot from people after we work with them is that they'll say I went to counseling for years and all I had to do was these few things that you're asking me to do to clear some of this stuff. And I said yes, because that processing is so important. So I think there's a difference. So that's one of the things I discovered too was that the grief needed to be processed and I found a very particular way that's just so effective. So, even though I would recommend counseling and we even work with counselors there's sometimes you need more and not everybody needs more, right? Not everybody needs the kind of help that we give and some people are a little more resilient, but a lot of people do. So I'm not knocking counseling I was glad to have it but I say some kind of support can be different than actually doing healing work, right right.

Michelle: 13:23

Some people can really get stuck in their grief, and then others, the way they're wired, they're just ready to move forward. So, yes, it does depend, doesn't it on the personality it does.

Anne-Marie: 13:33

And if you're the person stuck and you see people moving forward, you think there's something wrong with you. That's right. That's right. So what's wrong with me? And those people just need some help getting unstuck.

Michelle: 13:45

Right. So in 2018, you actually published a book called when their World Stops the Essential Guide to Truly Helping Anyone in Grief, and I got a copy of it. I thought it was great, very helpful, and I have people in mind that I wanna share it with. Your book addresses important topics like how to appreciate what the griever's experiencing and feeling, what to say and do, how to understand their specific type of loss, which is so important. And so, since you've been immersed in this work for so many years now, can you tell us what you've seen related to grief? What are some of the most common things that griever's experience?

Anne-Marie: 14:26

Well, I think you said this in the beginning hopelessness right, hopelessness being lost, lost lonely, especially if they lost their spouse the loneliness that comes from that. The other thing brain fog, which is so important and can last for such a long time. But then the other thing that I think is so important too is that around them they may feel people just don't understand, people just don't get it, and it's frustrating to us. It's actually the reason I wrote the book. I thought I can't believe. You just said that to me. I know you think you're helping, but you're not. God bless them. Michelle. Those are the things that I said to people before I lost my husband. I completely own it. I had to apologize to so many people. I said someone has to write you a little guide or something on how to help. I think just understanding how to help other people help you to lower your expectations of others, but also of yourself. Because, society does not teach us about what to do when we lose someone. We've got what Two days' bereavement pay and we're supposed to bounce back. So often we are so discouraged with our lack of progress because we get the message we're supposed to be doing better than we are. And that's hard and it can be disturbing.

Michelle: 15:55

Yeah, One of those platitudes I think is I can't even imagine what you're going through, and I think that I bring this up in almost every show because it was such a big deal for me. But when people said I can't imagine what you're going through, I knew it was true, but it made me feel all the more isolated because I thought, well, that's true, you can't and you can't and you can't, so who can? So that was troublesome for me. I felt like I definitely needed someone who knew what I was going through or who had experienced similar feelings. And you talk about that in your book, which I think is so important. As I was reading through your bio and all this information, I read a comment. You said to my surprise, I wedded a widower seven years after my husband passed away. And I was curious why. You said to my surprise, why were you surprised by meeting and marrying Ron?

Anne-Marie: 16:52

I never expected to be married again. It wasn't even on the horizon for me. I was very fortunate to have the husband that I had and I couldn't imagine ever finding someone like that again. And I was very, very lonely after he died. And it was interesting that over time and with active healing steps and all that, I was able to rebuild a life very different, but that I actually got comfortable in being alone and it changed from loneliness to being in solitary, but in a good way For me. God really fooled a lot of those voids. He was. I even got a ring that said. When I eventually took my wedding ring off, I replaced it with a ring that had engraved on it my son's name, my name and God, that was my family now and I wore it on my. I said, okay, so this is my family and this is. Thank you that I had it as nice as I had it and so I'd kind of created a life and it was. I was in a really good place. I had a lot of healing, was in a good shape and I was doing widow retreats then and someone told me I had to check out this gentleman's retreat center and so I went and that is how I met Ron and he was. He had just lost his wife, about a year and a half earlier, to a four year battle with cancer, but we just connected right away and we had the same hearts for grievers. So we started working together and partnering. That's how it started, completely as friends, and just surprisingly led to something more. He's been my gift and what I call like a bonus round in my life that I never expected, and the neat thing is I can look back and see how God has used both of our experiences and pain and brought us together now because we are so much more powerful together as a couple when we work with people and everything we do is together and partnering. And it's just. It's such a joy and such an honor to do this work. We love working together and we love helping hurting hearts. So what could? It's overwhelming to me that this has happened. I'm so grateful.

Michelle: 19:01

Well, I'm so very happy for you both. It sounds like your meeting was truly meant to be, and I'm so glad to hear that you two are doing this work together and using your experiences to help other hurting people so good. You talked about the ring. I think that was really interesting. Do you have any thoughts that you would share with someone who's a widow listening about the wedding ring? What are your thoughts on wearing it, taking it off? I mean, I know it's personal, but what did you go through?

Anne-Marie: 19:32

Well, I'm glad that you said that it's personal, because what I did was necessarily what whatever everybody else would want to do. And again, these things, there's no, there's no right or wrong way to do this. But what I did is I kept it on for a year and then after a year, on the year anniversary of his death, I moved it to my right hand. I still wanted to wear it, and then I put that other ring on you know that this was my family now and then after the second year, I did take it off. But I know some that never take it off or wear it around or they make jewelry with it, and so I still haven't done it. But my plan is to make a bracelet out of it still the ring, because I'd like to have it. But the one thing about all of that whether we're talking about what to do with their things right, or what to do with your ring, or when to start dating or anything like that it's it's. There's no right or wrong answer and we shouldn't judge other people for how they choose to deal with that. Some people will get rid of their things right away. Some people won't move anything. Neither's right or wrong. We have to be so careful about telling people and judging you know that they're not doing it right.

Michelle: 20:53

Yeah, that's such an important point to bring up because I interview a lot of different people and they're giving their perspectives and, like you said, everybody grieves in different ways and has different timelines. For me, it's been more than 10 years since I lost my son, Sean, and people will ask me how I feel and there's times when I still struggle, even after all of this. This time, you know, and sometimes that's hard to even admit because people I think kind of judge, oh, it's been so long. People do have that mental timeline that they set for us, you know. But anyway, I think it's good to talk about the fact that everybody grieves differently.

Anne-Marie: 21:32

I'm glad you brought that up, though, because, of course, even when you have healing, you are going to miss them, right, you're going to miss them. And there are also just certain days where you can have like grief ambushes right, and they can happen anytime. Some days for sure, we know they might be, you know, particularly like if it was their birthday or a holiday. We know that those are going to be tougher. I call those like their temporary upsurges and grief days, and we want to have a plan for those days. It's really important. But then other ones are. You know, you're in the, you're watching a TV show, something reminds you, you see their favorite food, whatever it is, and you just break down and cry, and that's that would be totally normal and not mean that you're regressing or you're not doing well. It's, it's just part of what we deal with, and we will always miss them, and I would say most people expect us to be doing pretty good after a year. Yeah, and I had a. I'm not going to really throw them under the bus, so I shouldn't say this, but it was a family member of me. Well, I don't understand, ann-rae. It's been almost a year you know and I'm you need to get, we want to get over it and I'm thinking, oh heavens, this is why I needed community that gets me. And but you know what, before I lost my husband, michelle, that's exactly what I thought, of course, same here.

Michelle: 22:57

Yeah, thank you. So Anne- Marie, let's talk about your widow's retreat, because I thought that was so interesting. You say that it was one of your most cherished activities out of all the things that you do. Tell us a little bit about what happens at the retreats, but also how do you measure the success of the retreats.

Anne-Marie: 23:17

Oh, that's a great question and if you could see me right now, I'm grinning from ear to ear because we love doing these widow retreats. They are definitely our sweet spots and we love widows so much. We love all gravers, but of course we get this most right. But what we find is that losing a spouse, and particularly losing a husband, is a unique loss. There are a lot more secondary losses. All losses are bad. So I'm not saying it's worse, it's just different, right when you think of all the things someone loses when they lose a spouse. So what we've learned through the years, through our own experiences and with working with widows, was what can we do to help them in the least amount of time? But that can make a huge difference and these retreats have evolved over time. But what we've done, very specifically, we only work with four widows. That's it because it's got to be intimate and we want to get results. So it's a very safe and sacred space where they come. We have a little retreat center here and they all get their own room, their own bathroom. And they come from all over Michelle it's wonderful Canada, all over the United States. We actually it's amazing to me we don't get a lot of Californians, but it's just nice because it's not too big, so they're not overwhelmed, and so they come to this beautiful space and first of all, they're with people who get them. And that's what's so powerful. In the beginning they don't even know each other and they might even be scared, and within 10 minutes they are just chatting away and they're letting their guard down because they're with people who understand and they don't have to pretend and some of their favorite things to do are just say well, I can't. This person said this to me. What is your family saying to you? Just complaining. And we also have them bring their husbands with them so they're included in the retreat. We have them bring pictures of their husbands, we talk about their husbands, and so they have that community. And just the time of them talking with each other when Ron and I aren't around is healing for them, which is wonderful. But then the other thing we do we pamper them because they need to be cared for, right, these women. We work with them one-on-one with processing Remember, I told you the importance of actually processing all the emotions and get it out. So we know how to get it out. Does that make sense? We know how to discover what it is and how to clear it for you. It's a really beautiful way. It goes deep within your heart and it's not what we find when people are stuck. Michelle, this is what a lot of the widows will say. They're not choosing to stay where they are, they just have no idea how to get out of it or what to do. And when we do the processing and we see what's on their heart and they're burdened with which. Some things they already know, but a lot of things they don't. Until we go there and they can be wearing things heavy emotions, regrets and things like that that maybe aren't even logical, but it doesn't matter because it's real to them. So I will tell you, without going into a lot of detail, what came out for me, which if someone had told me I wouldn't have known it and I would have said it's not true. But when I went through the process, what came out for me is I blamed myself for my husband's death. So he had a terrible headache and I knew he did and I should have made him go to the doctor. We won't get into the whole thing, but the point was it's not my fault my husband's dead, and I know that you could logically explain that to me, Michelle, but I needed to process like it was my fault, because those are very real feelings to me and just telling me it's not didn't get rid of them, going there and acknowledging them, or just even how could you leave me, right? I mean, you're mad at someone who didn't choose to leave you, but whatever it is, it just brings all that stuff up and we can clean the heart out a little bit so that then they have less pain. We want them to remember their husbands and widows usually need permission to get better because we often feel like our grief honors our husband Right that if we were doing better then it would mean we didn't love them, which we again we know that's not true, but you can understand. They need this permission so we can clear the heart out a little bit, teach them how to bring their husbands with them forward, but in a different way, so it's not unhealthy at all. And then we can ask the question what's life look like for you now? Once they get some freedom with their heart and some healing, then we can figure out what life would be like for them. And until that point it's very hard because, again, that filter, it's just. There's so much there and we kind of describe being a widower or a widower. Ron came up with this analogy and it could be with other losses as well. So again, please, I don't mean to give too much attention to this, but it's kind of like going to your house, which you know, where everything is in your house. You live there for a long time, but all of a sudden you walk in and it's pitch black, so you can't see anything. Well, that's okay. Normally you could find your way around, but now someone's completely rearranged the furniture and that's. And most widows will nod their head to that, because that is what maneuvering their life is like. There are things that are familiar to them but they don't even know who they are, they don't feel like they belong, they lose their sense of identity. They're just and they're stumbling, trying to get through and just surviving our existing thinking. They can't be any better and we can take them to another place when we can clear this stuff. And so you had said what's the sign of success? Yes, it's true. For us and it happens to each lady at a different time maybe a different step, but it is, oh my gosh. I feel so much lighter. I had no idea how much I was carrying until I actually took it off. And they're exhausted, even though it's a lovely time. They're exhausted because there's so many emotions that they're carrying that need to be dealt with. They just, if you don't deal with them now and they're not choosing not to deal with them, they just don't know how to get out there and then usually ready then to take new steps. And one of my favorite things is when because we have two aftercare sessions too, so we stay connected with them and see them on Zoom. But they'll say my friends say I look different, okay.

Michelle: 30:10

Yeah.

Anne-Marie: 30:10

Of course, that's not not everyone's gonna have a total transformation, but some ladies do, but they usually they leave with hope and they leave with lifelong friendships and, hopefully, a different filter. So you can see why we love what we do, because to be able to do that in four days and they usually don't wanna leave. Oh, and we also do we work with horses here too, so we do equine coaching and the horses are very, very powerful as well. So it's just I think it's a sacred place and to do this healing work and I call a lot of what we do brutal. It's hard work, right, it's brutal.

Michelle: 30:50

That's good.

Anne-Marie: 30:52

But it's beautiful, it's so important and it is the it makes all the difference in your future when we can go there. And again, not everybody needs this kind of care and support. But there are a lot to do.

Michelle: 31:09

Yeah, well, again, it goes back to the fact that you have that empathy and compassion because of having experience at yourself, and I love the fact that you shared your actual experience. You didn't just say I had something, but you went next level and you said what it was that you felt like it was your fault that your husband died, and I think not just widows I lost my son. You do go through all of those questions in your mind Could I have done something different? Was this my fault? All of these things that you carry around. So I think it's wonderful that you create this place for like-minded people to come and feel like they can be vulnerable with one another. I think that that's just so beautiful and the healing component of it is beautiful Brutiful.

Anne-Marie: 31:56

Brutiful. They're excited and scared to come at the same time.

Michelle: 32:01

Well, I was also gonna ask you do you by chance match them when you get their applications?

Anne-Marie: 32:07

That's a good question. No, well, we screen everybody, so you can't just sign up. So they have to have an interview with me, and that's because it's a very special candidate, right? And we wanna make sure that it's going to work for them. If it's not, that's not good for them and it's not good for us either. So sometimes people won't be ready, it's too soon, and we'll tell them. You know, and I talk to them, it's too soon, you're not ready for this work yet. You won't get the results. Or some people don't wanna do the work Sometimes when you say, look, there's gonna be some work involved so we can screen it, and the ladies always know if it's right for them. So when I talked to them I said this isn't about getting you to this retreat. We're talking to see if it's even a good fit for you and if it's not, then let's see what else might be able to be done and maybe I could recommend it. So they always know. But, Michelle, I have to tell you so once I know they're a good candidate, I don't worry about who goes with who, because they always connect. Always Different ages, different types of death, they always connect and they become sisters. It's so special and I just believe God's hand. You know, this isn't a Christian retreat. We are Christians, but everybody needs this help and if someone wants to bring their faith into it, we love to do that. So, and of course, ron and I are praying about all of this all the time anyway, whether people are believers or not, but we just this is such a gift from God to be able to do this work and to share these hearts, and we just believe that this is why God's allowing us to do this, like we need to help these women, and it's the greatest joy to do it, to just see them smile and laugh. Some of them haven't laughed, and we have one night where I play games with them. I said we are gonna play a game and you just hear them laughing and they haven't laughed.

Michelle: 34:03

They have permission to laugh.

Anne-Marie: 34:05

Permission and you know we give them. We have a whole permission list for them about the permissions that we're giving them.

Michelle: 34:12

So you understand that I get it, I get it.

Anne-Marie: 34:15

They are so hard on themselves and we are so hard on ourselves and we feel like we have to pretend we're okay when we're not. So you can see why this is a really sacred space. I wish we could have them even longer, and we tend to become a family. It's very hard to let them go, and they always send us updates for years after, which we love.

Michelle: 34:35

That's great, yeah, and I'm glad that you pointed out that it's not exclusive. It's on a faith-based community that it's welcomed, but it's not part of the criteria. So, Anne- Marie, this has been so great. Thank you for your wisdom and insights. You shared so many good points about grief and loss. You made it clear that everyone experiences grief differently, so we should never put our own expectations on others. Just walk beside them and let them grieve. You told us you experienced shock, fear, a very deep level of pain, brain fog, a lack of zest for living and even a loss of security when your husband died, and you want listeners to know that all those emotions are normal and to be expected following the loss of a loved one. You explained that grievers will initially have a difficult time with hope, and the things that others say about enjoying what you have are hard to hear at this time, because sorrow tends to cloud your ability to enjoy the good things. For a time, you said you engaged in therapy, in that you enjoyed the safe space to share your thoughts, and you highlighted the importance of seeking a therapist who specializes in grief at this important time in your life. And, marie, what other lessons have you learned having been through all of this, can you share with someone listening who needs hope right now?

Anne-Marie: 36:02

I hope that some of the things that I will say will help, and I hope that some of the things that I say won't frustrate or anger them because they're not there. So sometimes, when I would say a message of hope, that can anger some people if it's early on in their grief, right, because they can't imagine it. So please just know when I say that, I say it with a lot of sensitivity, but I know what it's like to ache beyond belief and to have a pain that's unimaginable, and I know what it's like to want to die and not go on. But I'm living proof. This is what I tell people. You know that I didn't have hope, but I am living proof that you can get through this, that there is another side, that there is hope, that in time okay, and there's no way around it in time and with active, healthy, grieving steps, life can be good again. And you can be good again. Even though life is different, all right, and you are different it can still be good. And so I just want to leave that message. But we might have to do something, we might need that extra care right to get there and healing. Healing and getting better is not about forgetting your loved one. It is absolutely about remembering them and remembering them well, but without the same pain. Being in excruciating pain is different than missing them. Right that we have the missing. So that that's true. We have to, and I've learned, you have to be gracious to yourself when you're grieving and you have to be gracious to those around you. Lower your expectations of what you can do and lower your expectations of those around you, because they just won't get it. I learned that. I learned the importance of connecting with a community that understands. So to be with other widows, to be with other grievers and I host a widow's tea once a month and I'm telling you those ladies they've been coming, they love each other once a month and they've all different years after their losses. But and we don't even necessarily talk about our widowhood, but that connection is just so special. And so sometimes maybe you can't find a community, but you could even create a community. Society doesn't know about grief and we usually don't know about it either. So you know, we know how to get things, but we don't know what to do when we lose things. So when we can recognize that we aren't equipped, usually there's freedom in that to know that, okay, I do need some help. Just like with a physical injury, I need help with this emotional injury. The other thing is and I know this is going to be hard for people to hear is that because of that deep, deep pit that opened inside me full of pain, I did believe one day and I didn't right away believe this that maybe one day it would be filled with something else. And I can tell you now that that deep place that was opened up in me because of my pain is now filled with joy. So I know joy to a deeper level than I ever would have had had I not had this pain. And I know for those aching, you want to probably swear at me right now, and I have had people swear at me and you go for it. You should, because that's what I, that's what I would do too. But I've experienced it. I know it to be true that in time you can grow because of your grief. And my husband and I, Ron, would say we are both better versions of ourselves because of our pain. And but I have to say that does coincide with my faith right, it really does that there is a hope in God, that we can trust him with our pain, if, if we will. And God did not take away my pain, but he held me in it. So I said he was a great pit partner. I was in the pit and he I'm like, take me out. And he didn't take me out, but he held me and he held me and I just trusted him. But I fought with him a lot and I told him this is too much, I can't take it, I'm going to die. But now here I am, okay, fast forward, and I have such joy now. I can think of my husband now and smile and I would never wanted it to happen, but I can see all the growth and good that has come from it and that is what God can do. Right, that is what God can do. So I want to leave with a message of hope. I hope that wasn't too much.

Michelle: 40:51

Yeah, thank you, Anne- Marie. I think I've said those words in some way shape or form so many times that, yes, we would never ask for anything like this to happen in a million years, and if we could have them back, yes, we'd want them back. But the good that can come from it, that God can use these terrible circumstances for good, it's amazing, and what you're doing to help other people now is so important. So good did come of it. I will put a link to your website in the show notes so that listeners can learn more about the widows retreat and everything else that you offer, but at this time, I just want to say thank you so much for agreeing to be my guest today. I really appreciate it.

Anne-Marie: 41:30

Oh, thank you. It was a joy to have this conversation and thank you for what you do. This talking about grief is so important, and thank you for using your pain and your circumstances to help others too. Thank you, Anne-Marie.

Michelle: 41:45

So for those of you listening, it's my hope that you heard something and all that Anne- Marie had to share that provided hope or comfort in your time of grief, and I completely agree with what she said, that if someone would have told me early on that good would have come from my son's death, I would have wanted to swear at them too, but like Anne- Marie, I am also proof that good can eventually come in time. It's so hard right now, I really know. But hang in there, my friend, and for now, be kind to yourself. Surround yourself with people who love you and who get you, and don't leave God out of the equation. He is truly the source of all hope and He'll walk beside you at this time. The Bible says in Psalms, chapter 34, verse 18, that He's near to the brokenhearted. Let that permeate your mind and your soul today. Thanks for listening.