Is Heaven Real and is My Loved One There?

Well, hey everybody and welcome back to Qualified, the place where incredible people share their stories of overcoming great adversity and loss to inspire you and give you hope. I'm Michelle Heaton. Well, if you've listened to other episodes of the show, you know, I've interviewed people who have had heavy loss in their lives, you know that I call the podcast qualified, because when my only child passed away at only 17 years old, I didn't want counseling from someone who learned about grief from books. I wanted to talk to another parent whose child died. And throughout the years, I've discovered that people who have experienced great loss have much to share from what they went through. They're qualified by their life experience. And you also know that we don't just talk about the gravity and the sadness of loss. But each guest will also share the profound lessons that emerged from the pit as they crawled back into the light of day, eager to help other people who need it. Today, it is my honor and privilege to talk to someone who is qualified, both professionally and through his own personal experience. He is what I consider an expert on all things loss. After earning his bachelor's and master's degrees, he received his doctorate of theology and Doctorate of divinity, as well as becoming a thanatologist in 2022. That's, the scientific study of death and the losses brought as a result. He's also earned his certification in suicide counseling, and apologetics. Additionally, he's a certified chaplain, where he officiates around 100, funerals and weddings each year. And after the tragic passing of his younger brother, he founded Mark Ministries, a registered nonprofit organization. He's been working in pastoral care and bereavement support for 25 years. He's a nationally certified grief counselor, a regular speaker at grief seminars, and facilitates weekly bereavement groups in person and over zoom. And today, it is my distinct pleasure and honor to have Dr. Paul Lendermon on the podcast to share his expertise with us. Welcome to Qualified Dr. Linderman.

Thank you so much, Michelle, I'm really honored to be here. Thank you

Of course. Well, your credentials certainly speak for themselves. You spent many years and study and in practice, and you're an expert in grief and loss. But can we start with your story? What was the most significant loss in your life? And how did it impact you?

The most significant loss I had was on March the first 2018. I had just spoken with my younger brother Mark. And he was encouraging me to start a nonprofit organization in California. I had already told him about some of the opportunities and some of the things that we were doing here. And he contacted me that morning and said, I want to be the first one to support to I'm going to send you $100 to get it started. And an hour and a half later, I got a phone call that he had suddenly passed away with a heart attack. And he was 40 years old left a wife and three kids behind. He was a minister, Pastor, to young people in North Carolina, and just an encourager to me, as well personally. And so that loss changed my life changed my perception on a lot of things. As a grief counselor, I had helped a lot of other people. But when you go through it yourself, it's quite different. And it really just helped me look at everything so much differently than I ever had before. It helped me empathize more with others, but that one loss really just changed my world.

Sure. Well, I'm so sorry to hear about your brother Mark. And I know that his passing deeply impacted you and many other people who loved him dearly. So tell us how losing Mark served as the catalyst for the birth of a new ministry.

So after Mark passed away, I waited a year to kind of go through my own personal grief journey. I attended a couple of bereavement groups where I was not the facilitator. I waited prayed really thought about it really remembered his words, but really just tried to go through the loss myself and try to make sure I was grieving appropriately. And then a year later in 2019, we launched Mark Ministries in memory of Mark. So his legacy lives on today. And that motivates me that encourages me and it just keeps celebrating his life as we go forward. And it's so important. So it's been so helpful for me because I deal with a lot of hard things. But I know that we're keeping his memory moving forward and a life.

That is just amazing and so beautiful. And it sounds like it was exactly what Mark was inciting you to do when you to last spoke. So when you agreed to talk with me, I had so many questions because of my own grief. But I also put myself into the minds of others who I've encountered, as they talk about their losses to imagine what questions they might have for you. So one of the things that I believe many people are forced to think about immediately after losing a loved one is, where are they now? Really, people are saying, you know, they're in a better place. But where is that? And what about heaven?

When it comes to the issue, or the the truth about heaven or the afterlife, as some people call it, it can be one of the most comforting things for people, because everyone I talk with, and I deal with a lot of people that are consider themselves atheists or agnostics, or any other type of religion that may not even believe in a physical afterlife, like heaven. So I usually ask this people said, If heaven were real, if you believed in that, wouldn't you like to go there? What you'd like to know that they're there, or at least believe they're there? And they always say yes. So what I'm finding is that this heavenly place, is something that everybody really hopes is true, they really want it to be true, because everybody who loses someone that they love, they really hope to see them again, even though their religion may keep them from believing that or admitting that. But in the heart of a person, everyone hopes that there is some reunion that will take place in another world, so to speak, which we would call heaven. And I love to talk about heaven, because my whole view of heaven and my faith has been even cemented even more, now that I know somebody who is my younger brother, who is up there. So now it's been even bigger, has become more real. And I've lost so many other loved ones even since that as well. And dealing with hospice, I lose people all the time, so to speak. And one friend I have says I never did lose them in the first place. I because I know where they are. And that's a common statement. I understand that I usually don't say that, because I want to deal with the person in their pain, as they say that, about losing that. But Heaven is can be one of the most comforting things for a person in grief because it gives us hope. And in the scriptural point of view, is it's a firm hope it's a steadfast hope, not that we hope we see them again, but that we will see them again. So biblical hope is as sure as it's already happened, it's a reality. We just haven't experienced it yet. And so Heaven is so comforting and encouraging. And no wonder Jesus brought that up in John 14, Let not your heart be troubled. You believe in God believe also in me. And then he goes and talks about this heavenly place, because we all want to be with our loved ones. That's our desire and what we long for.

Yeah, I would agree that the hope of heaven is comforting. But what about the body? And what I mean by that is, for example, when I visit the cemetery, it's a somber place. But I like to believe my son is not there, that he's moved on to heaven. But what about our bodies? I mean, what does scripture say about that?

Second Corinthians five seven, till the Apostle Paul says, To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, which seems to indicate when a person is absent from the body, when the soul leaves the body, they are immediately present with the Lord. So this body in which we live is our outer shell, it's our flesh. It's, it's our host of our soul if we if we could say it that way. So when a person physically dies, and the body stops functioning, the heart stops beating, the brain starts, stops thinking and it literally is pronounced dead and there's no more breath in our lungs. For the believer, we are immediately transported to another place is what the scripture indicates. And that's a comforting thought because we're not stuck in the body anymore that is ceases to function. Because the body is made for this earth to function and to breathe and we're subject to gravity we're subject to time when we stop existing now and here then we exist in another place. So we I like to say that up for the believer we go to be with heaven go in heaven. We are there temporarily. We believe if you study the full scriptures, that that is a temporary place where it will be and then one day God will recreate this entire earth like he did originally, which is super awesome to think about. And that will all enjoy a brand new earth, He will fix all of that. But there is a temporary resting place where we call heaven, where our loved ones are. And that's a beautiful thought to hold on to. But I also like to say that we hold them in our heart. So I like to say they're in heaven, they're also in our hearts. And what we mean by that is that their memory is still alive within us. In the Jewish religion, they'd like to say, and I think it's Alfred, Lord Tennyson also said this, and a few others say this quote, that a person, you know, actually dies twice, the first time is at the moment of death. And the second time is when we stopped talking about them. So I used to tell people when I officiate a memorial, or what we call a celebration of life, we're celebrating their life now, because we're talking about them. And I encourage people to continue to celebrate their life. In other words, say their name, serve their interest, all of those things, keep the person that you love alive. And how do we do that keeping them alive in heart and mind is by saying their name, showing their picture, sharing a memory, all of those things and doing things in memory like we're doing here. Today, we're letting their legacy live on the book of Hebrews, who says he being dead, he yet speaks. So even though our loved ones are gone, your son, my brother, and others pass their memory lives on in what we do. So we're keeping them alive. So I like to say they're in heaven, but they're also in our heart, and they're living along through us.

I couldn't agree with you more about that, saying their names. sharing memories is so important, and it actually makes me feel close to my son again. What about the person who's struggling with the fate of their loved one, because they didn't live a life of faith, or they didn't seem to have any spirituality that would indicate they believed in God, what sort of comfort or reassurance is there in a situation like that?

I used to tell them, nobody knows a person's heart. So you hold on to hope that perhaps that they did come to some type of connection to God, because I don't believe God ever gives up on anybody. I don't care if a person's in a coma, or we are human perception is they were far from God, they never talked about faith, those type of things. The truth is, we really don't know a person's heart. And I really believe that God is so loving, and His love is so fierce, he is pursuing every single person that I really believe that he never gives up on them. So I would say, first of all, do not despair, hold on to the hope that you have prayed for them, that you have loved them, that that God was still pursuing them. He wanted them to know him and come to the better place more than we did. So hold onto that hope and just leave that with him. Now, with that, obviously, it's hard because we have this fear that we're not going to see them again, or they're not going to be in heaven, or the New Earth or whatever we're so so we we hurt. We wonder we grieve about that. We don't have that assurance, that yes, I know for sure they're there. I've talked with people, they said, What if I don't see them again? So do you know for sure you're not? And they said, No, I don't, but I'm not sure. So then hold on to hope that they did make a connection with God because he was pursuing them to the end, even when they couldn't even respond. He was there working on them. So we just have to kind of leave that in his hands. Because truth is, we don't know a person's heart. We don't know. And I do know this though. What we do know is that God is very gracious, very merciful, and His love is everlasting. And it goes beyond anything we could ever imagine. And I just, I would just leave it in his hands.

Yeah, like what you said, he wants them to be in heaven more than we do. That's so true. And hearing that is very helpful. Thank you. So often, when someone passes away, people will make that comment about them being in a better place. Now. It seems like there's this widely held belief that heaven is the automatic or default location for everyone when they die. What is the gospel truth, if you will, on this topic.

So everybody wants to be in a better place because everybody knows the world is broken, and it's messed up the weather, everybody agrees with that. Everybody also agrees that we believe in something. My atheist friends believe in something that's called nothing, they do not believe there's an afterlife, then you have another belief system that there is an afterlife, but it's the next life or reincarnation or it's some other type of butterfly, or if you had a bad life, you're now a beetle or something. So there are beliefs out there and then there are some who believe in an afterlife, but they have to work them their way and be really good and make sure that they're they're good enough and God let them in the pearly gates. But then there's another way. And I believe it's the simplest and the best. And it makes the most sense to me. And it's the scriptural view and it's called the I call it the Jesus way, which is it's by grace. I think the best question I found as an act 16, verses 30 and 31. Where are you have the jailer, they're talking to the Apostle Paul? And he asked the question that says, What must I do to be saved? And were there it is right there. Okay. What must I do to be saved? What do I have to do in order to be saved? That's kind of the question now. So in other words, do I need to go to church, be baptized, go give communion, tithe all my money, give to the poor, help all the elderly women across the street? What do I need to do going all the missions trips, tell me what I need to do, because I want to be saved. And Paul simply says, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved in your house, which means your family, in other words, saying it applies to them as well. In other words, for every person, what do they have to do to say they believe on the Lord Jesus? And why is because Jesus already did everything. So it's done. So you take those words do did are done, it's already been done. And Jesus actually did all the work for you. So we don't have to, that's why it's called the Jesus way. It's my grace, it's a gift. So in order for a person to know that, that or they have that particular belief, to have that is done, just simply realize I cannot do anything in order to be good enough to earn God's favor or entrance into heaven. It's simply saying yes, and be leaving on the Lord Jesus Christ, because He did everything, which is really what everybody wants to. It's the simplest, it's the easiest way because Michelle, honestly, if I've read the scriptures, and she said, You better do 1,2,3,4,5 I would probably try to do it because I would I want to be saved. I want to go there. I want to be in heaven. I want to see my loved ones again. But he said, Okay, here's what you do it you believe Feagins to five? Or excuse me to eight, nine, same thing by grace, are you saved through faith? It's not of ourselves. It's a gift. It's a gift from God. Just accept it. Yeah. So it's accepting the gift. It's already been paid for. It's already packaged. It already has our name on it. Everybody's name is already on there is simply a matter of saying yes, just simply believing. And it's beautiful. It that is another life changing event. Grief will change your life. But when you accept the grace of God, Grace will change your life too

that seems like a pretty good deal to me. And I love the package with my name on it. That's great. Okay, so another question that seems to come up is communicating with our loved ones after they die? I know that I'd love nothing more than to be able to have another one of those deep, heartfelt conversations with Sean again. But what about this topic? Can they see us? Do they know what's going on in our lives? Can they hear us if we talk to them?

Can our loved ones hear us if we take Hebrews 12, one, two, and three, if we take that passage, it seems to indicate that our loved ones who have passed on believers who have passed on before, can almost look down on us and see us and cheer us on on the journey as we run our race as Christians. That's the whole context there. So surrounding like a cloud of witnesses. So I mean, there's a couple of applications or interpretations of that, that one seems to make sense to me, because the Hebrews 11 is the hall of faith, as we call it. And it leads us in it talks about believers who have gone on before us. And then it says, Wherefore, therefore, which I learned a long time ago when you see the word therefore, wherefore you see what it's there for. So the next passage leads right into that. And it indicates that there's these cloud winners, and they're cheering us watching down on us. So I believe they can see us, I believe that, that God allows them to see us, especially when we're running the race. If heavens a high place, I have doubt he lets us see us in our bad moments. God knows those things, but cheering us on all those type of things. But I also say to people, you know, it's okay. If you go to the cemetery, if you're around your house, and you need to say something to them. It doesn't say in Scripture that it's wrong to do that. And I find that I find a lot of Christians, it helps them process their law. So talking to their loved one, I think is fine to do that. It's one of the coping mechanisms that we go through. It's okay to do that. Now. I'll tell you something very personal that I do. When I pray to the Lord. I will often say, Lord, would you please tell my brother I said, Hello. Tell him that I love him. I miss him. I think and I'm so grateful for his impact in my life. I'm so grateful that I had him for this many years and I just want to tell I'm terrified. Let him pick down on me. I'm doing great. I'm getting ready to go speak at a church, I'm getting ready to go provide grief counseling to a family, and just tell him, I'm moving forward. And I love him and I can't wait to see him again. So I will in my prayers to the Lord, I will and I really believe with all my heart, Jesus does that. And he'll I believe, it's almost like, hey, just talked to Paul, I can see Jesus saying, Hey, I just talked to Paul this morning, Mark. Man, he's doing great. He started a ministry, he's, you know, we picked and he's doing this, he just somebody just accepted Christ. Somebody did this. And he's doing great. He's officiating this funeral. He's with Qualified right now I can see him peeking down. So that's one thing I recommend people do is, is why not just taught when you say your prayers to the Lord, why not just say, Hey, God, can you give my husband or my spouse or my child or my parent? Can you give them a message for me, but also a therapeutic measure from a professional standpoint, certified grief counselor, is it's okay. If you go to your site, you need to express things, you need to get those things off your chest, and who's who's to say, God doesn't take those and open up that door to Hey, they're talking to you now. I really believe God is so much bigger and more gracious and knows that we're hurting when we go through loss. And so even if we don't find something in the Scripture does not necessarily mean that God doesn't let those things happen. Sometimes we get too bogged down, although the Bible doesn't say it can have. Well, it doesn't say it can't either. So I believe God knows when we're hurting, he knows we're weak, and we're at the bottom. And he's the comforter, and He knows our pain. And so yes, the answer to that question, yes, it's okay to talk to your loved ones. At the cemetery at home, also in prayer, talking to the Lord as can give messages. I usually don't pray to my loved ones, because we really feel Hebrews rather, for 16 reminds us that we can approach the throne of God. But why can we do that? It's because of Jesus. That's why when I pray, I pray in the name of Jesus, because that's the only way I can actually access the God of the universe. It's through Jesus. But I do know this, he loves me more than and loves every listener on here, more than we could ever imagine, regardless of what our faith background is, he loves us. And He wants us to know that we are loved, and he is there with us in our pain.

Much of what you said was just super comforting to me. So thank you for that. Because it's it's clearly what your assignment is to do. So let's talk about the person. Those of us who are left behind surviving loss, and some people can sink down into heavy despair and depression even sometimes, what do you say to those people about picking up and going on with life.

So someone who is has just been bombarded by grief, maybe they don't have the support that they needed, initially, or maybe they've had complicated or multiple cumulative loss. And they find themselves just beaten down, and they're spiraling towards a depressive state of mind and behavior. To someone like that. They really need intervention. First of all, they need to get help. And there's different ways of getting help. There's individual counseling, there's also support groups, some people are group people, some people need the individual help. And so I would say if somebody is listening right now, and they feel like they are depressed, I would say a couple of things to you. Try to find some type of support Mark Ministries is a great support. No matter where you live, I have group I have a zoom group that I have people from New York, Florida and Texas that zoom in every week. So there is support out there, regardless of a person's faith or wherever they are in their journey. So you need to get some support. If you go without getting support through counseling or group type sessions, and you don't get help, you're going to continue to spiral downwardly. So it's important to get that I would say also to you is, don't beat yourself up just because you can't function or you're struggling to function. You have to understand that it's a process and we can't really do it by ourselves. We need others to help us and that's why I'm so glad that people are listening to this today to realize this is a life changing event or events that a person is going through. So understand that your world has changed that is different. I would say also to you that you are not alone. Even though grief will tell you you are alone. There is support out there. There are people who love and care and will support you and help and help you through these dark times. Also to be patient with yourself. Remember, it's not going to be fixed overnight. It's not going to revert back. I would say also it's okay to cry. It's okay to grieve. It's okay to be with your emotions and to whatever comes your way whether it's the emotion of the big three, which I call them sad, mad and glad. Okay, so if you're sad or lonely and crying a lot or if you're mad and you're angry because they left you you're by yourself you're angry at God whatever the situation is, or if you have even the smile or happy moments, sometimes people feel guilty because they're sad because they feel like they're supposed to. Or they feel guilty because they smile, because they feel like they're supposed to stay sad. So they smile at a joke or a picture. And then guilt or grief will come in and make them feel guilty about that. So all of those things, you have to be with your emotions. And I would say also, to realize it's a roller coaster journey, you have sat down on the roller coaster of grief, and you're going to be some days you're going to feel okay, some days, you're going to be down some days you're going swirling all around. The difference is with a roller coaster, usually you can unbuckle it and get out after three minutes, but not with grief, it continues on. And I would say also to the depressed person. He or somebody finds himself in that pit of despair is that God sees you. You Yes, there are other people that are going through loss in this world. But and though I may not be able to see you, wherever you may be listening today is that there is a God that sees you, he knows your pain, and he will bring the right people to you. And maybe this is for you today, to be able to listen to say okay, there is hope I need to contact qualified or only contact Mark Ministries, there is hope out there you you are not alone. Grief is so deceptive.

Yes, I can definitely relate to feeling guilty about being happy. But over time, you start to realize it's okay to experience the joy. Again. I'd love to talk about purpose a little bit. I think sometimes we feel like especially as a mom, and being a mom, sometimes our purpose can be wrapped up in our children and grandchildren. And when that goes away, that's part of the Depression feeling like you don't have a sense of purpose. What do you say to people about finding their life's purpose?

So usually, a person's purpose is wrapped up in the person who's passed away. And so when the person passes away, usually the purpose goes away, especially if you were had a dual role like a caregiver. And you're caring for you know, trying to be wife and caregiver at the same time, I see this a lot. So when now you find yourself and you've got this empty time, now your schedule is clear. Now your purpose, which was taking care of that loved one, whether it was a child being the mother, or taking care of a loved one and hospice type situation with a long goodbye. Now you find yourself with all this time now you try to reinvent yourself, who am I? So some of the normal questions are who am I? Or what do I do next? Or, you know, is there anything else for me what what is going to bring meaning to my life now, I really believe from a spiritual standpoint, and even even for someone who may not consider themselves religious or whatever, I believe that as long as you're breathing in, you're alive, and you're still here on this earth, that there is a purpose for you. And we find that all throughout Scripture, as far as a purpose and those type of things. So let's say there's some reason that you're here. And a lot of people find that in surviving family members, whether it's children, grandchildren, spouses, siblings, parents, friends, it could be not just in family, it could be friends, some people find purpose, and things of that nature. So I would say realize that there is a purpose, just because you can't see your purpose does not mean you don't have a purpose, because grief will blind you to your purpose. Because all you see now is there's no future, my dreams have passed away what I thought I was going to be doing. It's no longer here, I would also say really pray about the purpose, ask God to reveal that to you. I would say also you Some people can, as they look at purpose, and try to think of what do I do next, feel free to try out a new adventure. It doesn't mean that you have to commit to that to the rest of your life. Now that life is reset there, you can try things. Another important thing regarding that kind of that same area is think of something that brought purpose to your loved one who passed away something that meant a lot to them, something that was very important to them, and then take that and you can continue their purpose. And now it can become your purpose. I see this a lot. I had a lady on there forget became and she said no bereavement group of mine. And she was struggling with this question of purpose. And I said, What was something that your husband enjoy doing or really brought meaning or a smile to him? She said, Well he gave to the homeless in our area. And I said, Well, that might be something for you to think about. Maybe continuing that tradition or continuing something new that and she came back the next week and she said I found it. I'm going to start quilting blankets and I'm going to give those out to the homeless in memory of my husband. She started doing that and now she does it every year and this has been years now she's since you've been doing this. It brought purpose to fulfill his purpose even though he's gone. So those are some ideas to do that. And again, I would say probably Back to one point, it's okay to try out a new purpose but don't overcome it. And don't feel pressure don't feel like you have to have a new purpose. Two weeks after they passed, sometimes we just need to grieve and go through the journey. I usually tell people wait six to 12 months after a loss before you make a huge major decision. Just in case you know, you're not ready for that. Because a lot of people will try something. They quit. Now they feel guilty and they have another issue. So wait, think about it, pray about it, and take your time with it. But in time, there is a purpose I believe for everyone.

Yeah, that is very good advice. So Dr. Lenderman after all you went through in your own grief experience, and also considering everything that you've learned from your education and from working with other grievers, what are those important life lessons that you've learned about loss that you can share with people listening that need hope right now?

I learned that everybody grieves, even Grief counselors. I've had people in my groups that were actors, lawyers, mortuary directors. So I realized that death and loss is a universal experience. We all deal with that. And we all deal with it differently. We all deal with it at different times. Sometimes we can't control our emotions, especially initially, I realized one of the big lessons is the five stages of Elisabeth Kubler Ross's five stages of dying, which then translated five stages of grief, I realized and most grief educators now have agreed and written about this in the past years, is that you don't go from one stage to the other you don't graduate. I you know, a lot of people still believe that actually, that you go from the data, you know, you go from the denial and the anger and the bargaining depression and acceptance or the shock of some psychology. Now, some people have seven and there's I looked on the internet, the other day said 12 stages. But I realized that you do go through stages, but it doesn't mean you graduate from one you can oscillate and fluctuate and go back and forth. So you can fill in a state of shock. Sometimes four years later, I can look back and think, Wow, I can't really I can't really believe this happen. This is unreal. My This is hard. And this is this is a bad dream still. So I realized that grief is like that. I've learned that it's a lifelong process. I have also learned that time does not heal all wounds, as the old saying goes, but throughout time, the pain will lessen. And so I've learned that there is hope in the heartache, and that as you go through time as you get the support, I think faith is a key factor in helping us grieve appropriately. I think getting that support and having our faith keeping our eyes on God, those type of things really have helped me personally get through this having a purpose to remember our our loved one has been so helpful to me. I think another thing too, that I learned is not to forget other people who've had the same loss because they're hurting too, because it's easy to focus on ourselves and our own loss that's natural and normal. But then, I mean, I have a wife and four kids, they're all girls pray for me, everybody. But they suffered a loss to my siblings, my parents did. We all went through loss. And honestly, I think I was too so consumed with my loss. It was so drastic. I didn't realize my wife was grieving. My kids were grieving, I didn't support them as much as I should have initially. They say there's 10 People who grieve severely on average of every loss. If it's a complicated or out of the ordinary type loss, whether it's a young person or whether it's a homicide or suicide or whatever, then it usually triples. So we see that the grief reaction is very difficult, especially with the pandemic caused a lot of those complications because some people couldn't see their loved ones and couldn't tell them goodbye. I'm helping fish eight memorials that happened a year the death happened two years ago now. Because people couldn't get together. So there's lots of more complication. So everything's different now. And I think one of the big things I've learned is life just changes. When things change. We suffer a loss. I've learned that grief is one definition might one of my favorites is grief is unexpressed, or unfinished love. I did not stop loving my brother, I wanted more time with him. I still love him even now, even though he's been gone for years and I always will love him. So that's why grief is a never ending journey. We just learned to cope with our absence. physical absence, I would say right now. So I've learned just to be patient with myself. There's some things I can't fix. I like to fix things. I like to solve problems. I cannot fix grief

Wow. Those are great lessons. Thank you for that. I know you have a lot of inspirational stories as a result. To view your work, so can you just take a minute and share one or two with us as we close?

I can think of I can think of one lady now a friend of mine who's a great supporter of Mark ministries, and lost both of her children, and then lost her husband all about two and a half years apart. And for her to find purpose, to see her find comfort, to see her find her way, in her grief journey to see her faith strengthened to see her move forward at her age, and the ability that she's has been able to use that to help others. She's an inspiration, because she has really helped a lot of people and still does. But to see her come through the journey after cumulative loss of losing her Lily, her entire family, is pretty remarkable to see her moving forward, and how she's still making a difference until her Her time is up, as she likes to say here on Earth. That's one incredible story. There's a family right here where we are now that lost a son. And to see this family come together and unite, and to be able to work, work together to move forward in their loss and to see them come to a place to grow to grieve appropriately. And just to be an inspiration and encouragement to me, as well to see that because the they were devastated at their loss losing their son, tragically, those are stories that are really encouraging to me, I would say right now the one that is most present on mine is your story, Michelle, is that after losing your son, to be able to have something like this, to be able to help other people around the world, to really bring hope. And love and peace is very inspirational. I just learned about this not long ago, but it's such an encouragement to me to know that his legacy lives on, he is still living on as I like to say through you, you are using his memory and you're using your own experience, to really bring hope to countless others we will never know until eternity, how many people's lives are being touched through this. So you're an instant, you're my inspiration right now of what you're doing. And I just think it's wonderful what God is doing through you, through your own experience going through that to really be able to impact and help others there. I guarantee there are people listening to this, that are at the very bottom, just trying to get some glimmer of hope. And so my hope and prayer today is that they have found that and learn a little bit about themselves and understand that it's okay not to be okay. And it's okay to go through this process of that there's hope out there for us. So thank you for what you're doing.

Thank you, Dr. Lendermon. That is quite a compliment. And I appreciate that very much, especially coming from you. So to close us out, can you just summarize for our listeners, the support that Mark ministries offers to people who are struggling with loss, and tell us how we can find you.

It's www.mark ministries.com. It's as simple as that Mark Ministries I get called Mark a lot. I'm actually Paul the brother, Mark is the one who passed four years ago and the ministry is in memory of him. If you're on here, and you're not a spiritual or religious nature, and you just want somebody to help you from the psychological certified, I do both types of counseling and support. So I want to be able to help people, no matter where you are in your life journey wherever you are in your faith or not. Or wherever your location is. So you can contact me there's an email, go to the website, there's a phone number, and reach out and, and just know you're not alone. We want to help. And so I'm so glad that I'm able to be here today. It's a great honor. I'm very humbled and honored to be here and want to help you wherever you are on your journey. You don't have to do this alone.

Well, thank you so much. I will link all that information in the show notes for our listeners. And again, it was my privilege to host you today. Dr. Linderman thank you so much for what you do and for all these people that I know you are helping as well.

Thank you Michelle. Again, it's a great honor to be here. Thank you so much.

So for those of you listening, Dr. Lenderman has agreed to come back on the podcast in the future and offer his words of encouragement and counsel as we delve deeper into the other topics related to loss. And feel free to drop a comment on the website or send me an email at call me qualified.com to let me know your questions or thoughts about future episodes. I'd love to hear from you. Thanks for listening