What is a Great Father?

Well, hey everybody, and welcome back to Qualified, the place where incredible people share their stories of overcoming great adversity and loss to inspire you and give you hope. I'm Michelle Heaton. We all know that Father's Day is upon us. And I wanted to take some time to acknowledge all the great dads out there. The dads who will be celebrated this Sunday, with their families by their side. The fathers whose kids traveled in from out of town for barbecues and good times around the table, because they've invested and cared and loved. And today, they will delight in the joy they deserve. But let's also acknowledge those who are facing loss on this day. Your father might remind you of more difficult times, you may have experienced the loss of a dad, or the loss of a child, or both. It may be estrangement, due to abuse or neglect, caused by a father that you will be reminded of this weekend. There may be dads who feel ill equipped for the job, because their father didn't take an active role in their lives. Or worse, the role he played was not a good one. Your dad may have reflected his father's behavior with you, good or bad. Your father might not even know what a good father looks like, behaves like loves, like, because it wasn't modeled to him. And as a result, you might not know what the standard for fatherhood should be. Today's guest will talk with me about this topic. He's fairly new to the fatherhood thing with three little ones, ages four, two and three months. He doesn't profess to be an expert on it, but he does it every day. And from my vantage point, he's doing it well. So I wanted to get his perspective. And in addition to being a dad, he has a master's degree from Fuller Theological Seminary, and he serves as a teaching pastor at a thriving Christian church. He's currently enrolled in a doctoral program at Duke University, in addition to helping his working wife raise two little girls and a boy. Welcome to Qualified, Jeremy.

Thanks for having me.

Well, obviously, I raised a lot of hard questions about fatherhood in the intro. We'll talk about those things eventually. But first, can you tell us why you decided to pursue a career in ministry?

Yeah, well, I didn't. First of all, I didn't, I was planning to be a teacher in college. But I think God kind of hijacked those plans and changed the trajectory of everything was my plan to do ministry, it was just never on the radar. But I felt called at some point in my heart, it felt like this was the right thing to do. And I should do it and it's worthwhile.

So you met your wife, and you decided to get married? How long were the two of you together? Before you decided to start a family?

Four years, four years or so? So plenty of time to travel, do some mission stuff overseas, and, you know, enjoy life, just the two of us?

That's good. You know, I've talked to a few young people recently, who told me that they didn't want to have children, because of the state of the world today. What I mean, what are your thoughts about that? Have you ever had reservations about it? Or did you always want to have children?

Yeah, and I never really had reservations about it, and never really thought about it that way. But I kind of think that children are a sign of the future. And I see the future in hope, like not in failure or a crumbling world, like some people might, of course, it's scary. But I think if if we can raise our kids to be world changers, a lot easier said than done. But But Well, I think that might just change the world. And so I think there's a lot of hope for the future, rather than retracting and thinking that, Oh, let's just not not deal with the problems or not tried to fix them.

World changers. That's great. Can you talk about those things that you had to give up when you became a father? How'd you feel about that?

Yeah, there's I mean, Sleep Number one is a big one that changes especially after the first couple of months, but to sleep, surf schedule, the opportunities and time to go surfing is greatly diminished time in general. That's one of those things that after we had kids, we wondered, like, what did I do with all the time that I used to have before and so it's it's different, you become more efficient, I guess, but time is a big loss. It's busy. But also every day is good in some way. It's new, it's different, even challenging, which is good, too. So, you, you do give up a lot. I think you do experience loss. But it's all it's all for for the better purpose, I think.

Well, did you have any fears or anxiety? And when you first learn that you're going to be a dad?

Yeah, of course, there's the like, I have no idea what I'm doing. And yeah, I still feel like I, I don't. But I think in the in the months leading up to it, like we found out that she was pregnant, and we were in the middle of remodeling our home. And we actually took the test in the home that was all gutted and everything, we're putting it back together, we found out she was pregnant. And we were super excited and scared at the same time. And the next couple of months were filled with, you know, more remodeling of the house and that we felt like our life was kind of coming together in terms of a family. And so it was very exciting. But also it hit unexpectedly, the, the thrust into fatherhood immediately happened, not according to our plan, right.

So well, I've interviewed other adults for the podcast who are raised by ministers or pastors, and they refer to themselves as P K's right, pastor's kids. So you're now raising two girls and a boy that will grow up to be PK's. What's your biggest hope for them and their lives on a spiritual level?

Yeah. So they're already PK's. They have that branding, right? And I hear it can be rough. You know, the other day Zeke, our oldest, a four year old boy, he asked me if heaven is in the sky. And I was like, No, it's a different reality, true reality outside of space and time, and yet able to make impact on our space and time and someone on staff is like, Dude, your kids are gonna be so jacked up. And I'm like, Yeah, I should probably just say differently, whatever, but but my hope is that they grow up even as pastors kids to grow up, to love life and to also love the church. And so we want to enjoy it and not make it seem like a burden. To see like the ultimate value in loving God and loving people. Because I think there's nothing better. You know, I also want to help instill in all of them to be helpful and accountable, cultivate hearts of compassion in them, and hard work. Like, you don't just give up because you're tired. You keep on going, even when the going gets tough. And I want to help them discover, like, their own relationship with Jesus. And and always, I think the most important part is to have an openness with with me and with Tara and my wife, where they can tell us anything.

Yeah, that's important. What have you already started to pass on to your children that you learned from your dad?

Definitely a couple of good lines, Christmas is canceled, or I'm gonna call Santa. If they're misbehaving. What when they're brushing their teeth, and they're running the water playing with water, another line from my dad was save some water for the fish and quit lollygaggin and Zeke's. Like what's lollygaggin mean? Wow, it's like wasting time. There's so much probably a lot that I don't realize a lot of subconscious. Definitely a sense of humor. And sometimes I was biting me because of that. And I mean, Zeke our oldest, he's only four. But he's also got a strong work ethic. And I think that's something that I received from my dad. And, you know, Zeke, he's just not a quitter, unless he's hangry, you know, hungry and angry at the same time. But a big one also is an awareness of safety. My dad was a firefighter for years. And so I have this blessing and a curse, like, you know, to all my days off, it's it's project day, or you can do stuff around the house. But it's also another thing is seeing safety as a big part of life where in every episode, I can see all the different things that could go wrong, and trying to prevent some of those things is a big thing. So I think safety is something that has been passed on or responsibility but I think we we experience or we pass on to our children, what we experienced from our parents. And something as simple as playing Legos. I remember playing Legos with my dad building a train set, whatever it was, and how important that is to to the kids as you know, it's not necessarily the fancy vacations or you know, the soccer clubs or whatever, but it's simply like sitting down and playing together. Yeah, we're reading reading together big big time. So

that's good. What mistakes have you made along the way?

Yeah, a lot every day. There's a lot that I could probably a mountain here but so many frustration irritation, those things. I remember snapping at Zeke one time and he just melted there. I like raise my voice or just was real sudden real sharp and And he said data, you scared me and I just felt gutted. I apologize profusely, you know, try to use better methods. That's what I've tried to do. Instead, he's better methods are just pausing the frustration. And I asked her about this. And it's like, well, what about like, we're at our two year old? How have I, you know, blown it with her? And she's like, Oh, well, she's like your little princess. So you let her get away with anything? I don't think so. But, you know, that's one of the things is you get frustrated, irritated, the responsibilities, the stress, whatever it may be. Sometimes that has a way of, you know, seeping out of our pores and into our relationships with our kids.

But I love the way you said it. Just, you know, it just got you in the heart. Yeah, we love them so much. That's the last thing we want to do is hurt them. Oh, yeah. Yeah, time. Well, do you have any routines, rituals, or traditions that you've already established in your family? And why are they

Of course, like getting real Christmas trees every year, important? and the prices just keep skyrocketing. But carving pumpkins, we celebrate birthdays, anniversaries and make a point to do that, on Christmas morning. We always have our family tradition of we're just celebrating by ourselves first. And we'll read the Bible story before, you know gifts and stuff. And my wife usually tries to make some new recipe. It's always a mystery. But we go to church every week. And that's kind of a routine that we follow. And we want to instill in the kids that we go to church every week. It sounds simple, but it does set a precedent for us. And for them. We spend Mondays together usually that's our day off and so we try to do we try to do family movie nights as well, but that our middle one edit, she's just not really into movies, except for Encanto, for a couple of minutes. But another thing would be bedtime routine. Tara's like oh, yeah, I always pray every every night with Zeke. And with that, I'm like, Oh, I don't like sometimes I do. But I think that the routine of Yeah, we tell a story. We rock, we sing a song, maybe we read a book. And those are all common things that they look forward to. And I look forward to you throughout the day.

Yeah. Well, I love that you said you know, you go to church, and it's a routine. It's important. And then the fact that you pray or read the Bible on Christmas morning kind of reinforces it isn't just going through the motions. It's a part of who you guys are. Yeah. So what's been the most rewarding part of being a dad so far?

Yeah, hearing hearing, I love you. Being able to, you know, hear your child communicate that to you, is huge. And obviously spending time together and seeing them grow and learn the lightbulbs turned on and seeing them discover new things that they enjoy. Yeah.

I love you is huge. Jeremy, in your opinion, what are those traits or characteristics that you aspire to that you believe make a great father, and what's the most important thing that a father can impart to his children?

Integrity, I think that's the most important for sure. Like you are the same person, wherever you are, even when no one's watching. And I always want them to see me as the same person, on stage at church at home or really, wherever. So integrity, for sure. I think someone who's present I think someone who's listening, someone who's involved are all really important. I think someone who helps you when you make mistakes, and also one who lets you make mistakes. One of the things that I'm I'm working on right now is changing my language instead of saying, like, be careful, be careful. Every time you know, the kids are doing something crazy and life threatening, almost, you know, you don't want to just kill their joy or kill their experience or learning. Because I mean, yeah, they'll find out that that hurts. And my dad always, always used to say, like, stupid hurts. And I'm like, Yeah, that's true. If they want to do the monkey bars, you know, go for it. And I mean, I don't want to go to the ER, but there are certain times in places where I think it's okay, so, so allowing them to grow into who they are to ask questions to try and answer all the questions that come. So a lot of listening and a lot of being present, I think is super important. Yeah. And that's another thing instead of my wife is always on me about it. Like instead of telling them what not to do, tell them what to do that be more productive.

Now, you know, I recently talked to a man a father, who was in the position of caring for his aging dad after being treated poorly by him for years and he described his dad as being old school and not knowing any better. He said he was from that generation where the men took a backseat to parenting and let the wives take care of that stuff. And he said his dad used to make fun of him because he changed his kids diapers something a man doesn't Do? What are your thoughts about that?

Again, I think a lot of the I think that a lot of what we learn is from how we were raised. And so that definitely impacts. I saw my dad changing diapers. And so I didn't think twice about changing diapers. And I think that the way that we parent is a way that we're we're a team. And I think that the team approach works well. For us. I think it is a shared kind of leadership role. But when a situation is like there can be a lot of bitterness and a lot of resentment that comes from a father figure who speaks to you and treats you like that. And that can fester for years that bitterness unless it is approached, and maybe maybe talk through or forgiven. But yeah,

yeah, yeah, that's a hard one. Sometimes when fathers don't have the best role models in their dads, they tend to perpetuate that bad behavior with their kids. And because it's all day now. What would you say to an older dad who falls into that category? Is it too late for him to make any changes?

There's always time, I think there is always time and I heard just a tragic story of a man I know who his father was ill and his father, he knew that he was dying and had a terrible, tumultuous relationship with his dad throughout his entire life. His dad wasn't there. And it was just a bad situation through and through. And he never forgave his dad, and his dad died. And yeah, he reaped the benefits of that financially, but that bitterness and unforgiveness with his dad, and also, you know, later on with his mom as well like it, you can just see it. erasing his joy. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So there's always time, there's always time to, to make changes. And a lot of times it has to do with swallowing our pride and asking for forgiveness, or making the first step. Like don't wait for the other person to make the first step. Right, you got to do it. You're the father. It's your role. It's your responsibility. Like, don't wait.

So Jeremy, as you know, I started the podcast based on my own realization that sometimes it's good to talk to someone who's qualified based on their own loss experience, versus someone who's earned their qualifications from their education only. Since you're a pastor, I presume that you provide biblical counseling based on your education. Do you ever draw upon the experiences from your own losses? And how if you do,

yeah, all the time, my parents were divorced, when I was seven years old. And so that plays a big part in relating to people or sharing experiences with people. I think that we all experience loss as human beings. And so there are clear episodes in life that you can talk about one of those was for us. I mentioned earlier that, you know, as thrust into fatherhood, I had planned fours, or we had planned for Zeke to be born at, you know, the optimum time, 39 weeks, 40 weeks, whatever. And he came really early came at 33 and a half weeks, and he was three pounds, 14 ounces. And it was an emergency C section. Tara wasn't feeling good for four days. And we finally decided we should go talk to the doctor and the doctor said you need to get to the hospital. So we go there and turns out she's, she's gonna, you know, have the baby today. It was touch and go for a little while he was in the NICU for nine weeks, 63 days, and all came home on oxygen and a heart monitor. And so there was a lot of re shifting, I guess we had to do in our expectations and our plans for that there were a couple of times where we walked into the NICU and they were doing CPR on him and he was blue. I never had any any doubt that he would he would pull through and that he would make it I think it has to do with God being with us throughout it and the hope and faith that was growing, but there was loss in the middle of that and hardship and you know, having to work through the experience of it all but I'm glad we could do it as a team, the postpartum as a team, the emotions as a team and just to to be strong together through that. Yeah. This last year is felt like a lot of loss last few years, grandparents on my dad's side died and but they lived you know, great long lives and we were able to say goodbye and so those situations, but sometimes, you know, just being a pastor that you experience a lot of loss and people are around you. It doesn't just mean death and people dying. But there's the experience of loss when people move away, or when people leave.

Yeah, there's so many different ways we experience loss in life, and we have an opportunity to learn from them all. So, back to fatherhood, where did you look to find the benchmark you wanted for raising your children? Or where should any man look

Outside of yourself. I think you have to start outside of yourself. I think it has to start with God. And I know that sounds like the Christian answer. But I think in God, we have the, the best example of fatherhood. But I think that we gain things from other people in our lives, whether there are you know, biological father or the paternal figure in our lives, uncles, or just friends, friends, dads, or you see your friends going through their relationships with their kids. And I think that you can pull different things from each relationship, the good, the bad, you know, hey, I'm gonna read this, like, it's like this, or I'm not gonna do that, whatever it may be, you begin to see certain individuals, obviously, my own dad, and you know, appreciate everything that he has has instilled in me. But I also see, you know, other people too, and a different personality type who they are and how they're able to raise good kids.

Jeremy, you've covered so much today about fatherhood, and the work it takes to be a good dad. You acknowledged how difficult things are in the world today, but encouraged parents to raise world changers. Instead of allowing fear to dominate our decisions. You talked about the sacrifices a dad has to make, but how they're overshadowed by the joy of a greater purpose. You shared about how our own plans are subject to change, and how we have to accept those changes to learn and grow. You emphasize the value of modeling integrity as a father, being present, spending, quality time listening, developing traditions, offering and accepting forgiveness, and expressing emotions. What other lessons have you learned about fatherhood that you can share with someone who might be expecting to be a dad for the first time, or just someone who's aspiring to be a better dad?

I think having God as your everything is actually everything. Being a dad is a result of the miraculous. And I don't mean just like a biological development that makes you a dad, but or even a court order or whatever. It's something more that produces a great responsibility and challenge and joy. Like I could not do it without God in my life. And I don't know how some people do, but God I think, gives me the ability and the resolve to work at it. I mean, try again, to ask for forgiveness and also slow down to enjoy every moment. So I think that's, that's what it is, for me, at least that experience that, that knowing that wisdom that comes from God, you can't do it on your own. You need people around you. Honestly, I've never read like any books. But those would be great. But I think the real life experience and the relationships around you really support, support you and through that you cannot do it alone. No person can.

I was thinking about that scripture. We love because he first loved us, right. And I always think about that. Because when we have God's love and in us, it changes the way that we love other people. And so when you were talking about Etta and just the or the pain that you feel when your child experiences pain, that kind of love is God's love in my view.

Yeah, big time. I've talked about it before, like gray town where you before Jesus comes into your life, it feels like everything is gray. And you don't know any different because you've only ever seen it gray. And so like the streets are gray, the grass is gray, the houses are gray, the sky is gray, everything is gray, until Jesus comes into your life and paints it flooding it with color and life and beauty and vibrance. It changes everything you see the world entirely different whole new reality, which is true reality that is shaping and transforming everything that you knew to be you.

Yeah, I mean, that's a beautiful picture. And it might be hard for people to understand that aren't at that place. But it reminds me of fatherhood, you know, and having that love for your children. And as a man making a decision to maybe break that cycle just because they were raised a certain way and say, I'm gonna love my kids with that kind of love.

Yeah, I talked to a lot of people who maybe were raised in a home that wasn't loving at all. But I think that anyone can experience something and say, You know what, I don't want to do my parenting like that. I want to be different. And so It's maybe it's a chip on your shoulder or it's in the response to how you were raised. And so therefore, I don't want to raise my right kids or friends or family or whoever, in a different way.

Is there a particular story in Scripture that you believe demonstrates for us the kind of love a father should have for his children?

Yeah, I mean, there's this story. Often people call, call it the story of the prodigal son. But I think it's more of the story of the prodigal God who is willing to be recklessly spendthrifts towards us to be loving at all costs, and all expenses. And I think that's what we're supposed to do. And I think we have a warped perspective of that today, we think that they need to be in all the soccer clubs, all the volleyball clubs, and all the football clubs and all the things that cost money. And you know that because they're gonna be some great athlete, whatever it may be, or they're gonna go to Stanford or whatever. But I think all that stuff is kind of superficial to the reality of being an actual father figure in their lives, not just a parental figure. But a father figure is something that takes on a lot more weight when we see I think it's in Luke 15, the story of the the two sons and the prodigal God, who, who the son goes out and spends all his inheritance and is in the pig slop and tries to come home and his dad just loves him and accepts him and the older sons all mad about it. And he's all bent out of shape. But the father is like, what? Why don't Why don't you love him like, I love you. And, and so I think that, that is an image for me about what it means to be a good dad is the father who is is loving in a way that is self sacrificing. If you look more deeply at the story, you see this father who who runs and in the ancient world, you don't run if you're an old, distinguished man, you don't run, he gives him a huge hug. And this kid probably smells like pig slop. And he gives him a ring in a robe in a feast. And I think that's what we not that we need to spoil, spoil the kids. But I think they need to know how deep our love is for them.

You talked earlier about how one of your most rewarding experiences was hearing your child say I love you. But obviously, that was taught by you. But sometimes that's not the case. And there are homes in which those three words are never spoken for whatever reason. So if there's a dad listening now, who falls into that category, who never said I love you to his kids, or rarely told them how he felt about them. Would it be awkward or weird for him to just start at this point in life?

It can get awkward, but I don't think it has to get awkward like this is your, your child, right? Whether they're adopted or whether they are your own flesh and blood or whatever, whatever is your your child like you. You can tell them how much you love them, right and embrace them. And even if it gets awkward, you know, just do it. Just do it. You know, and I don't think we do that enough. We put up walls and boundaries.

And finally, what about someone who's lost their dad? Maybe he passed away not too long ago, or he's not present in their life due to some other circumstance? How can they be encouraged going into this weekend?

One of the things I often think about during the Christmas season is we focused a lot on Mary, we focus a lot on Joseph. But when you read the gospels beyond the first chapters of Luke, and Matthew, those are the ones that have like the birth stories, we get to Jesus as an adult. And Joseph has gone from the picture. And one of the questions I've always had was like, What happened to Joseph? Where did he die? Is he gone? Did he peace out? I don't know. But Joseph has gone from the picture when he's an adult. So Did Jesus experience loss at an early age or in growing up and having to deal with his father? I don't know. He's not there. Yeah, his mother is but his father's not. So

yeah, we read about his mother at the foot of the cross. And at the tomb later, but no reference to Joseph then. And maybe there is another lesson for us there. When there's a physical or emotional absence of a father, oftentimes, others step into that role for us. But we can always rest in the knowledge that God the Father is there.

I think that we can learn a lot from our fathers, whoever they are. But I think ultimately, our picture of fatherhood, eternal fatherhood should be God. I think that when we picture God as a father, there's a lot more depth to that, as he protects and defends and supports and He upholds and corrects and guides and all the things that but he does it perfectly. And that's the thing that makes him so different than me and maybe other fathers out there is that he does it perfectly. And he is the example that I think that we can really gain a lot from, or everything from.

Jeremy, thank you so much for agreeing to talk with me and to share all this on the podcast today.

Absolutely. My pleasure.

So for those of you listening, it is my hope that you will have peace today. I hope that you are encouraged by Jeremy's message that whatever your circumstances are on this Father's Day, you can find gratitude and meaning in your life, the way it looks right now. Losses of all kinds are so hard in the moment, but they teach us if we let them and they surely make us stronger in the long run. And remember that one day, you'll be able to help someone else with the lessons you learned during the difficult times in your life. Thanks for listening